alphadog

I know both school owners.It is not for me to comment on why they have a tense relationship.But...you , you should gather proof for the statements you made and be prepared to back them in court. I am not taking any sides but I think that even the guys at MVH would agree that what you are writing on a public forum has to be fair and backed solidly.

So this pay scale went in to effect in May when its hard to quit because everybody out there hired their crews for the summer. Example of pay for a fairly experienced full time employee Astar and 407 drill pilot, above 3000 hrs : 3000 a month plus 70 $ day rate (taxable) plus flight pay. No number of days guaranteed and obviously no number of hours.No protection from lay offs. If it happens to go on disability the respective pilot will receive something around 650 biweekly. Wow!

Most thoughtful and eloquent post on this thread so far, heliguy1. I ,myself, think too fast and with my temper prevailing most of the time.I agree with the need for solutions that take into consideration diversity of preference ,and the "niche " philosophy that keeps us interested in what we do. Nevertheless,the tendency in recent years is to diminish the importance of the "driver" and at all times maintain the "a dime a dozen" attitude.If a pilot is unexperienced enough,he gets paid with peanuts because of that. If a pilot is experienced enough he might be too expensive all of a sudden. During my years flying I've worked in Canada, PNG and the Middle East. The wages of an experienced pilot fighting fires in the 80s are the same with the wages that a very experienced pilot earns now moving seismic drills on the side of a mountain with a 205. How's that fair at any level? No doubt that pilots will vote with their feet when unfair measures come in to effect and no doubt that loyalty can't be expected at poverty wages.But that is not the solution. A poor country like PNG or Indonesia with enough helicopter companies to cover all their exploration needs and so forth has legislation that mandates time off at levels that would make the Canadian operators feel nauseated . Not gonna bring that in to discussions as it is a different beast of a conversation on its self. But, as a result to this legislation companies run a 28 on and 28 off roster with salaries at 100.000 to 125.000 $ AUS for a median experience VFR utility guy.How come in country like Canada an accountant somewhere has come to think that the payment schedule discussed in my first post is an option?What are the repercussions of a pilot hurting a driller or banging a fuel tank on a drill tower with the obligatory fuel leak and what are the repercussions for some accountant phucking up your expenses your paycheque or your T4 (a big one ,I might add). As a pilot you will be subject to some serious investigations , your abilities will be put in to question, you will get kicked off the job and the summer season that was supposed to save you money for the winter might just go out the window. All because of a wind gust or because you haven't slept well since you started your tour because your engineer is in and out all night doing the 100 and when he goes to sleep he snores worse than the grisly on the other side of the electric fence. The accountant on the other hand will wipe his glasses ,claim fatigue because he's overwhelmed by his job and his 40 hrs a week and will propose some cost cutting measures that will take away from your training , will impose averaged hours and some tiered ,convoluted pay scale that will save his puny *** job and make him look like some kind of maverick in management. All is fun and games till one pilot that pucks up will bring to the table the camp conditions ,the stress compounded by the pressure to get the job done with improper gear ,improper job bidding for miracle aircraft that lift all kinds of stuff with no margin for error,etc All that while the Quality assurance this and Quality assurance that, safety this and safety that are only busy pointing fingers and collecting solid paycheques .This is why we can't get pay that will not shame you when you walk in the bank for a mortgage and tell them what you do for a living. We have to stand up for ourselves. If not as am organized group as of yet, at least on our own. For now.. And we have to find a way to let the employers know that without us, the "meat servos", their helicopters would be collecting dust and their senior management positions would not exist.

There is no doubt that things are slow out there. But it has been a good summer for most companies and I foresee many good fire seasons to follow. Every down turn there are "pay reviews" where per diems are chopped ,away from base are taken away, flight pay is reduced,etc. All this happened in 08 and 09. Did those numbers get corrected while the mining industry was booming afterwards? NO! We have to stick with our guns guys and stand up for ourselves. Time for those at the very top to have their wages and performance reviewed.If this new stuff comes in to effect it will last thought the good years too.Good luck renegotiating a decent salary afterwards if this numbers become the norm.

Sad news. IFR is not that dead overseas. You might have to stick with a co-pilot position for a while in the sandbox.

Will not name names. It will suffice to say that it is about a major player in the industry,and (i gotta give it to them) a trend setter. So, good for you that the company you work for has no such plans,but you have to agree that its all "Dark Cloud" stuff if this gets implemented and than spreads across the industry as an accepted way of doing things. No running out looking for cliffs to jump. They'll get herded your way. Cheers

Gazelleboy, I believe that if there were any layoffs and come spring this would be the pay system presented for rehire, nobody would come back. Not without any number of days and flight hours guarantees.And than, mind as well be a contractor.

For that kind of money mind as well sit on EI or welfare benefits and wait for the phone to ring. I think it is condescending to price your people at such levels. Don't forget the implications that come in to play if you lose your medical or for some reasons need to go on disability. Anyways, I think this affects the pilots not the engineers so opinions from engineers are beside the point. And again , a word for 212wrench. Am yet to see a helicopter making revenue with only an engineer as crew. People like you promote the "us vs. them" attitude that plague the industry.

Helicopterjim,if it doesn't apply to me it doesn't mean I shouldn't care. I have good friends and family that will be affected by this .Maybe you're worth that kind of money.Am not and the guys that I know and will be affected by this have gained skills over years of hard work ,sacrifices and loyalty. This multi layered pay system penalizes the field guy unjustly. Most likely top tier management it is not affected on the way they get paid by their inability to obtain meaningful contracts or maintain a management system that is not overburdened by positions that are in fact "make work". Nowadays the guy in the field and even the ops guys are the bottom and accountants run the show. Sad. 212wrench...fak you and fak yor drones. If you can't bring anything meaningful to the conversation ,don't intervene.

Basically , pilots will receive a very small monthly salary (think somewhere around 2000-2500) , a day rate , and flight pay to top it all off.No number of days per year guaranteed. Just the expectation that you will be available to work 180 over a 365 day period.This measure is taken to save the employer money over the slow winter months so don't expect a half work and half time off schedule. Implications for you: -Go ahead and tell your wife that starting in Jan. the family budget will suffer a major blow and to put those expenses on hold as you will be paid in the equivalent of a E.I benefit cheque every 2 weeks. -In the event that you get hurt or lose your medical (not WCB related injury) from now on ,you will receive 65% tax free from those wages. As we all know, insurance companies don't take in to calculation your day rates and flight pay. -This salary will affect the amount of money you will be able to receive if you get laid off and must receive E.I. (not sure how that gets calculated nowadays but 2000-2500 will not get you the max amount for sure) -Remember, you still are a full time employee and therefore must be available for work when requested. So if you think you can get a job at the video store over the winter months to supplement your income, you are wrong. -Come summer time, you better plan to be away from home with no set schedule as you need to make the money now. Remember, all your buddies will wanna do the same, cause everybody will be on the same boat.I know, that is nothing new for all of us , but we should be expecting better in 2015 and maybe after 20 years in the industry and after choosing to be a full time employee in order to provide some sort of stability for your family. And if you worked hard all those years and maybe your day rate is higher,expect the lower day rate guys to get most of the work. They deserve the work too , but I anticipate frictions. -Go ahead and present those numbers as your only guaranteed income to your bank in order to buy a house or replace the beater. Those who choose to contract themselves have the benefit of being able to work with another company in the winter and charge higher rates,maybe. Full time guys don't have that option and in situations like this I anticipate the market to be flooded with talented guys trying to make a decent living somewhere else. This won't affect me , but it seems we are going backwards in this industry and in Canada especially.Lower wages,worse and worse schedules .

I don't know much about HTS but I agree with you about the need for a union or an association, at least. Every pilot I talk with out in the field agrees with that , yet when this is mentioned on a forum all **** breaks loose and everybody is against it. That shows the fear of reprisal that governs this industry. Another reason to bring onboard some kind of representation is the "averaging" programs that companies seem to be fond of lately. I think the law in its present form it is abused and misinterpreted. I am sure the press would love to get their hands on this. It would make a good program.

EASA pilots coming to Canada have to jump way fewer hoops to get their license. The other way around is a 14 exams,online mandatory courses,etc. And they bring to the table limited skills. Very limited skills when it comes to utility work. The only guys with solid mountain and long lining experience would be the Swiss. Unfortunately there are very few Swiss guys with that level of expertise moving to Canada to #### in a bag and be subject to market fluctuation and #### salaries . Most of the guys coming here are green and up to get their experience and go away. It would only fair if they would have to go trough the same process that we have to go trough the other way.

So , Phil, should I understand that a similar agreement is in the works with EASA?

After averaged mins,I hear the new scheme is to average hour worked. Not your sharpest tool in the shed ,so if anyone can explain how this works and who does it apply to (i.e:seasonal,full time,seasonal full time,etc),I would appreciate the knowledge. Thanks!

Point taken. I tried sarcasm and failed. Obviously there are lots of talented guys in the industry and on this forums.