Removing Structural Menbers In Flight (almost)

[Guest BeeBee]

Geez........that whole "Bush Pilot " mentality kills. Don't you get it?

Sooooo unprofessional.......

No wonder we have so many avoidable accidents in this industry.

Can't you just see an Air Canada pilot saying " let's go anyway...who cares if all the wheels won't come up...we'll just fly slower....that's allowed, right?"

[Auto Relight]

My Company Ops Manual is very clear in the refuelling with engine running section.......

the pilot must be at the controls!!!

 

If your Ops Manual says something other than this I would be very surprised.

But if it does, please send me the name of the MoT inspector that approved your Manual....

I'd like to meet an Inspector like that......I would move my Company's HQ to his region!!

 

 

Well,

 

I'm looking a both the company Ops manuals who I work for, and unless my reading comprehension has dropped a number of levels, I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything about the pilot being unable to hot fuel.

 

There are the words "supervised," "No passengers," and the usual litany of environmental requirements, but looks to me like I'm legal.

 

Seeing as almost every pilot I know does this, I'm a little confused here.

 

My Ops Manual says the above, and that CARS 602.09 and 602.10 must be complied with.

 

Fuelling with Engines Running

 

602.09 No person operating an aircraft shall permit the fuelling of the aircraft while an engine used for the propulsion of the aircraft is running and passengers are on board the aircraft or are embarking or disembarking, unless subsection 704.33(4) or 705.40(3), as applicable, is complied with.

(amended 2005/11/15; previous version)

 

 

 

Starting and Ground Running of Aircraft Engines

 

602.10 (1) No person shall start an engine of an aircraft unless

 

(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft;

 

(B precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving; or

 

© in the case of a seaplane, the aircraft is in a location from which any movement of the aircraft will not endanger persons or property.

 

(2) No person shall leave an engine of an aircraft running unless

 

(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft; or

 

(B where no persons are on board the aircraft,

 

(i) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving, and

 

(ii) the aircraft is not left unattended.

 

 

AR

[Over-Talk]

Hi Auto,

It seems our Ops manuals are quite different in their contents.

I'm not sure if the tighter restrictions in my Manual came from our company or from the MoT inspector.

Thanks, OT

 

 

 

[Auto Relight]

Hi Auto,

It seems our Ops manuals are quite different in their contents.

I'm not sure if the tighter restrictions in my Manual came from our company or from the MoT inspector.

Thanks, OT

 

 

Lol,

 

No worries... You had me wondering for a minute or two.... But I know we're good for Pilot Hot Refueling.

 

AR

[Billy Hill]

 

My company's Ops. Manual is stated differently but it still looks like I'm legal to do it too. Good because I'm not shutting down in -40 to refuel! :shock:

[DGP]

Every company has its own company policies when its comes to hot refueling...ask first or take the flak later..biggest concerns as mentioned were NO PASSENGERS on board...I have also been told that if the machine is shut down..NO body on board during refueling...also the pilot should be around the machine if it is running...not off having a quick lunch break...don't laugh...I was around when that one happened...a/c was left on a floating dock...running...pilot buggered off for aquick bit to eat...for ..oh...half hour...not sure if he still flys choppers but he did not get rehired at the end of that season...flew with him once..once was enough... :shock:

[Skidz]

Every company has its own company policies when its comes to hot refueling...ask first or take the flak later..biggest concerns as mentioned were NO PASSENGERS on board...I have also been told that if the machine is shut down..NO body on board during refueling...also the pilot should be around the machine if it is running...not off having a quick lunch break...don't laugh...I was around when that one happened...a/c was left on a floating dock...running...pilot buggered off for aquick bit to eat...for ..oh...half hour...not sure if he still flys choppers but he did not get rehired at the end of that season...flew with him once..once was enough... :shock:

 

Did he have the collective locked at 40% Tq to keep the Hobbs goin' too ?

[Taco Bell]

I've seen the 206 posts removed dozens of times with the aircraft running with no ill effects. This was always done with either a pilot or engineer removing and installing the post to insure it's proper re-installation on the aircraft. Otherwise, if it has been truly life or death with no where to land safely, the back doors come off ahead of time and sideways he goes. :shock:

[Blackmac]

Guys:

 

There is never a Life or Death situation for any rescue. You can either rescue the person(s) at the time or you can't do it for whatever reason.

 

Removing any structural member on an aircraft renders it non airworthy. A non airworthy aircraft has no insurance what so ever. Pilot,Pax or whoever.

 

Being a hero is one thing, being stupid is another.

 

I am speaking from a history of search and rescue, that is why I'm typing this note.

 

You have to learn that sometimes you can perform miracles and other days NO.

 

This message in no ways is telling you what to do, just think what would happen if the structure failed and the xmsn came loose on a 206, the person you are trying to rescue, yourself and pax would be involved in a catastrophic accident.

 

If you really want to have fun remove all the rear floor boards (structural) from a 204/5/12/14, go flying and besure to carry a tape recorder to record your last wishes as the helicopter heads for the ground in two sections, with you in the forward one saying WTF.

 

Removing a structural member is like playing GOD, eventually it will fail. It's also like not reporting over-temps/torques on a C20, it will eventually fail. DO YOU KNOW WHEN???????

 

IMHO, take it or leave it, but it's true. DON'T BECOME A STATISTIC.

 

Don

[hybrid]

Interesting thread. I have done logging support for 2 heli-log companies and it was S.O.P. to land on the heli pad and have the riggers, FA attendant or fallers remove the door post to insert the patient. In both companies it was not acceptable to power down on a heli-pad, as a lot were put together good enough to change crews and that was about it. The other option was to have the heavy do a external Class D extraction, unfortunately they were not always around. So you have 3 choices shut down on the pad and remove the door post yourself, longline the patient out or have the crews remove the door post. Of course you can refuse to help out and suffer the wrath of the riggers/ fallers when their buddies suffer or die while you stand by your principles.

 

This is not to say that any of the options are good ones, and I would be the first to listen and implement alternative ways of extraction. But to the best of my knowledge that anybody that does support has no other options available. So if you are flying fallers in a 500 how do you remove a faller from a mountain side?

 

On this subject I once removed a conventional faller from a setting with a Billy Pugh who had a heart attack. The FA felt they had to have him removed ASAP to save him and requested the Billy Pugh. The FA was on top of him doing CPR as I lifted them up on a 150' line, once I had them up the patients color was purple which I think we can all conclude he was deceased. Part of the problem is that everybody was friends with this faller and they were all very emotional.

 

It is easy to play armchair quarterback when typing on your computer, its another thing to be Johnny on the spot when the **** hits the fan out in the field. So has anybody have any constructive solutions to getting a person off a steep mountainside without a multi-engine helicopter on scene?