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Harmonic_Vibe

Removing Structural Menbers In Flight (almost)

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If your supporting fallers AH1 and you refuse to help them rescue their friends when they are dying on the mountainside, don't be hanging around staging when they get back. You will be their only hope of getting him off the hill, and they will be counting on you.

 

Are fallers more important than others? Why would we be expected to put ourselves and other at risk, when common sense says that removing the post is a structural change to the AC.

 

The door on the long ranger is different as the small door post is not a structural post (check the locking catches), so loading into the LR is ok.

 

Medivacs are a stressful situation, and we will often do (stupid) things that we would not do otherwise.

 

If your forestry crews asked you to fly with the post out, what would be your answer? No difference. but because someone is hurt we break all the rules.

 

Interesting that the FM doesn't say anything about the post. The service instruction says the post has to be installed and checked for proper locking and position, but nothing about flying with or without it.

 

After some discussion in our company, it has been decided that NO, we will not remove the post unless the AC can be idled down on a level secure place. If a patient has to be loaded from a location that does not allow that, then across the back seat he goes, with the doors tied shut, to a suitable place to load them properly.

 

Why take a bad situation and make it possibly much worse?

 

....and you refuse to help them rescue their friends...

 

If it all goes wrong, you won't have any friends...

 

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Well put Skids Up.

 

About the wire on the door post release handle, is it something that MUST be in place?

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Just wondering,

 

Do the same people who remove the door post in an emergency also loosen the skid gear and fly off of them over to the floats because there is no crane available and the water job starts tomorrow?

 

Oh, and load er up with the drill foreman and sling the head ( oops) because the drill job is behind?

 

And hook on to a truck because it is stuck in a ditch and the playoffs are tonight and we want to get home?

 

As for lifting a person on the skids to pull them out of the water - that comes down to skills and reference and does not put the aircraft at structural risk. That is the pilot and the person in trouble and risks only them (though of course a loss of control and flinging parts could put many others at risk and so the list goes on and on. Where does common sense start and when are you beyond it?)

 

Hero biscuits go down easy but hurt like heck on the way out.

 

I am just not sure why the slinging option (to the main pad) is not chosen and used as a standard. Seems like common sense to me, sling to the pad, land, kit up and go.

 

Also, if speed is of the essence here why forgo a shutdown to pull the post when you could just ditch the cool down period and shut down? One cool down missed should not cause great concern though I am prepared to hear the lecture on this. Given the choice though, it is in my opinion it is the lessor of 2 evils.

 

Fly a structurally secure and well maintained helicopter, use your skills to get the injured off the hill. The most skilled pilot will have a very difficult time controling a helicopter with a departing transmission.

 

As stated previously the pilot is at the bottom of the pile no matter what. And with todasy law suit happy fools you could risk your rear, save a person and get sued by the family of the one that did not make because you had to choose who to go to first. It is A**inine.

 

Cheers.

 

B

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Just wondering,

 

Do the same people who remove the door post in an emergency also loosen the skid gear and fly off of them over to the floats because there is no crane available and the water job starts tomorrow?

 

Oh, and load er up with the drill foreman and sling the head ( oops) because the drill job is behind?

 

And hook on to a truck because it is stuck in a ditch and the playoffs are tonight and we want to get home?

 

As for lifting a person on the skids to pull them out of the water - that comes down to skills and reference and does not put the aircraft at structural risk. That is the pilot and the person in trouble and risks only them (though of course a loss of control and flinging parts could put many others at risk and so the list goes on and on. Where does common sense start and when are you beyond it?)

 

Hero biscuits go down easy but hurt like heck on the way out.

 

I am just not sure why the slinging option (to the main pad) is not chosen and used as a standard. Seems like common sense to me, sling to the pad, land, kit up and go.

 

Also, if speed is of the essence here why forgo a shutdown to pull the post when you could just ditch the cool down period and shut down? One cool down missed should not cause great concern though I am prepared to hear the lecture on this. Given the choice though, it is in my opinion it is the lessor of 2 evils.

 

Fly a structurally secure and well maintained helicopter, use your skills to get the injured off the hill. The most skilled pilot will have a very difficult time controling a helicopter with a departing transmission.

 

As stated previously the pilot is at the bottom of the pile no matter what. And with todasy law suit happy fools you could risk your rear, save a person and get sued by the family of the one that did not make because you had to choose who to go to first. It is A**inine.

 

Cheers.

 

B

I am not sure how we went from landing on a heli-pad to do a medivac, to flying a helicopter to a skid gear, flying drill foreman to move a head or pulling a truck out of the ditch to watch a hockey game?

 

I don't work in the logging industry anymore and don't plan on returning to it, so really don't have a lot to gain by continuing this debate. However there are lots of Jetrangers out there doing support as we debate this who probably would like some constructive solutions.

 

It has been standard practice to land on a heli-pad hold power @ 40% tq and remove the door post to load a seriously injured patient, because the pads are structurally not shut down pads. Why? As previously mentioned in this thread there is no mention prohibiting this practice in the FM, I would reason. There is 100's of logging support pilots ( and ex-support pilots ), engineers on site over the last 30 years that accepted this practice. In my 8 or so years in logging support I never once heard anybody question this, surely we weren't all "stupid" as some of you would suggest.

 

In 1996 I was in a re-current training class at VIH and the subject of longlining a patient out that was seriously hurt. We were told as a last resort we were given the green light, however to make sure that the FA declared it an emergency and the patient will die if he doesn't get immediate attention. I don't know if that is still the procedure or not considering all the liability issues that are now surfacing, it will be interesting to hear HV's response to that.

 

In light of what some people have said on this thread quite clearly that policy needs overhauled. That is one great thing about this forum is that we can share ideas, and find some solutions and point out better ways of doing our jobs safely and productively. Unfortunately there are some pilots and engineers that seem to think they have all the answers and the rest that don't share their opinions, are not as smart as they are. Guess what your wrong.

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I am not sure how we went from landing on a heli-pad to do a medivac, to flying a helicopter to a skid gear, flying drill foreman to move a head or pulling a truck out of the ditch to watch a hockey game?

 

I don't work in the logging industry anymore and don't plan on returning to it, so really don't have a lot to gain by continuing this debate. However there are lots of Jetrangers out there doing support as we debate this who probably would like some constructive solutions.

 

It has been standard practice to land on a heli-pad hold power @ 40% tq and remove the door post to load a seriously injured patient, because the pads are structurally not shut down pads. Why? As previously mentioned in this thread there is no mention prohibiting this practice in the FM, I would reason. There is 100's of logging support pilots ( and ex-support pilots ), engineers on site over the last 30 years that accepted this practice. In my 8 or so years in logging support I never once heard anybody question this, surely we weren't all "stupid" as some of you would suggest.

 

In 1996 I was in a re-current training class at VIH and the subject of longlining a patient out that was seriously hurt. We were told as a last resort we were given the green light, however to make sure that the FA declared it an emergency and the patient will die if he doesn't get immediate attention. I don't know if that is still the procedure or not considering all the liability issues that are now surfacing, it will be interesting to hear HV's response to that.

 

In light of what some people have said on this thread quite clearly that policy needs overhauled. That is one great thing about this forum is that we can share ideas, and find some solutions and point out better ways of doing our jobs safely and productively. Unfortunately there are some pilots and engineers that seem to think they have all the answers and the rest that don't share their opinions, are not as smart as they are. Guess what your wrong.

 

 

The only post that I have read in this thread saying that some one is wrong is yours. You state this is for debate then make a comment like that - suggests you are not into debate at all. Just because you did it does not make it right. Was it wrong? Ask Bell and see what they say. Its their product. Presumably they would have an answer.

 

Funny though, about 13 years ago when I moved into the 206 I was told then that the door post was structural and not to be removed when the machine was running. So, where did that come from? Any one know?

Where I work now I have also heard the same comment. From several people whom I have the highest regard for.

 

The point I was trying to make is that many of us use different thought processes and have different comfort zones. Sorry that you missed that Hybrid. Guess I should have stated that more clearly.

 

As for holding at 40% - will your machine fly at 40%? Yes, you are keeping it lighter but what if the pad gives way? If there is no life and death involved or you would be slinging, why not just get the person in sideways and re-adjust on the main pad?

We could do this to "death". You do what you feel is prudent and safe in the situation you are faced with as will all of us I guess. Your decision will likely come down to your skill, knowledege, the risks involved and comfort zone. And customer pressure.

 

Cheers!

 

B

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quick someone end this argument....go out to your machine with a tape measure, remove the door and pull some torque and measure the amount the post opens up when loaded up...this will end the discussion once and for all.........

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Harmonic Vibe I was looking at your original post, and you stated that your high time established pilots didn't see anything wrong with loading a patient with the doorpost removed. So at your management meeting what was decided on how to remove an injured worker from steep logging setting.

 

P.S. Look forward to that Guiness :D

 

I also could use a Guinness...

 

After last week's meeting (next one tomorrow a.m.) we decided to do some fact finding. It truly is a cultural issue in some ways. I was taught it was bad... therefore it's hard for me to accept that some people think it's ok. Other guys I talk to were taught it was ok, have done it a lot without incident, and therefore wonder what the fuss is all about... It's the way we were raised, so to speak...

 

But to see what could go horribly wrong, check out Bag Swinnger's earlier post... the difference between tragedy and funny story is often half an inch...

 

Anyway, I asked for Bell's response in writing rather than verbally and they provided a letter yesterday that said:

 

Dear Sir,

 

The flight manual supplement applicable to the 206A/B/B3 litter kit does not restrict the removal of the door post (with the left aft passenger door) with rotor turning, to load or unload patient. In general, it is left to the operator to determine under which conditions it is preferable to load/unload patient, to ensure security of the medical crew and occupants.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Product Support Engineering

 

And this is after the guy(s) on the phone were absolutely beside themselves that somebody would actually consider it. One of our members (Vertical Ref) says he has a letter from Bell from the 70's that says you're not even supposed to move the machine on ground handling wheels... He's trying to find it for me...

 

We're now requesting more info from Bell... Like whether the machine has to be in flat pitch or not... The confusion here is definitely partly their fault...

 

I like Skids Up's statement about sticking the guy in sideways to get him off the hill... Why not remove doors at the landing, stick him in sideways on the hill and get him off that way? Sounds awfully safe and common sensical to me...

 

 

 

In 1996 I was in a re-current training class at VIH and the subject of longlining a patient out that was seriously hurt. We were told as a last resort we were given the green light, however to make sure that the FA declared it an emergency and the patient will die if he doesn't get immediate attention. I don't know if that is still the procedure or not considering all the liability issues that are now surfacing, it will be interesting to hear HV's response to that.

 

More or less still the same. To longline a guy in a single engine helicopter requires a few things. And if you're using non-certified equipment (i.e. Billy Pugh type stuff... or a bambi bucket... or a carousel) then it has to be life or death... And since we're not qualified medical professionals we indemnify ourselves by getting a medic or doctor or whatever to declare the imminent risk of demise...

 

HV

 

P.S. I'll update after tomorrow's meeting... if anyone's still interested... I'm going to grab a Guinness right now...

 

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So what weight is allowed to stand on the skids? I have never seen a limit in a flight manual or anywhere that states you can or cant have people stand on them in the hover, but everyone does it (including me, and ive had a 500 skid let go at the front and some how sort of line itself back up upon landing, as i was unaware at the time) - more to ponder

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When I got my first instruction on the 206 ambulance kit, I was warned to not only have the helicopter shut down, but to be sure that the skids were fully supported, that is flat on the ground, not sitting all wobbly. I was told, warned, threatened that I may not be able to get the door post back in place otherwise. The helicopter was under no circumstances to be started, let alone moved with the door post removed. These machines were mostly (all?) A models upgraded to B model drivetrains. Lighter, therefore flimsier airframes perhaps? Don't know, I still do it that way though and wouldn't do it any other unless recommended by the maintenance dept. and Bell.

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So what weight is allowed to stand on the skids? I have never seen a limit in a flight manual or anywhere that states you can or cant have people stand on them in the hover, but everyone does it (including me...

 

 

I think if you look at your weight and balance (calculations) you will soon see how much you are allowed.

 

Basic flight prep 101...

 

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