Hepac

[TwistedSpar]

And sorry about the mix -up So you're not a Fielkd Tech rep. I gusee at your level you just do and go where Eurocpter sends you? ( Not like that is a bad thing, nor am I being condesending) So it WASN'T you in NAIN Labrador doing some engine work on a French machine belonging to the Red and Gold company outa Springbank. Cuz if it wasn't somebody authorized payment for the wrong individual!!

Nope wasn't me. but i know who you are talking about. I'm much better looking than him.

[CD]

TS:

As a matter of fact, Yes I did! Lunchbox was expressing some interest in the duty times of engineers. He recieced a response from CD. As mentioned by CD, NOTHING has happened from the TCCA end over the past 4 years. AND nothing will happen. Primarily because the number of us engineers that are willing to support a time limit on the hours worked, buy an outside agenda is such a miniscule number, only a few give a crap.

 

Anybody with any understanding would understand that. I saw no reason to continue discussing a dead issue. ( From my point of view)

 

If its a concern to Lunchbox, he's free to either join Hepac and initiate an agenda addressing this matter to his satisfaction and/or starting his own organisation to address the matter OR doing it on his own. Either way if he can show some legitamacy to the matter i'd be happy to peruse it and if zi feel it was warranted, I'd stand behind it. Until that happens, I will decide how many hours I work in any given shift /rotation.

Interesting... So are you (and by extension HEPAC) suggesting that there is no need to establish duty time limitations for maintenance personnel? Do you believe that fatigue management is a "dead issue" because fatigue is not a hazard that should be controlled?

 

There have been many studies conducted indicating that fatigue is a legitimate hazard and it is somewhat surprising to hear that some in the industry may still need more evidence of the problem. How to mitigate the hazard is a worthy topic of discussion -- to suggest that yet more proof is required to determine if control of the hazard is warranted is discouraging.

 

I believe that fatigue management is not a dead issue and that a regulatory solution will be used to control the hazard. As I suggested in my earlier posts, I believe that it is a question of when the regulations will be brought forward, not if.

[ame206350]

It's so nice to hear from people with an open mind. Please with all your in-depth knowledge did HEPAC ever say we were going to solve your personal problems.

 

More incoherant ramblings. When did I ask HEPAC to solve my personal problems? Where did that gem of intelligent insight come from?

 

Well let me inform you that if you think these programs are not going to come forward, you are living on another planet.

 

No way! Really? :shock: Our company has had an SMS program for two years now. I'm well aware of what's potentially coming down the pipe.

 

If you join HEPAC or not is your decision and it will not affect me in any way.

 

Well if anyone else is as turned off as I am you might start to care....

 

So, say what you want about me, I could care less.

 

Are you sure? You've threatened to sue another forum member for what he said about you in this very thread.

[bubbleboy]

What was I thinking?? I forgot for a moment where I was. Vertical forums, where your opinion matters, as long as you have the requisite posts, and you belong to the clique. And don’t say anything too controversial, or the bleating sheep will gather around and put you in your place, via the local self appointed den mother. Sorry girl, I think that matters of a professional association are really none of your business, unless of course you possess a license of some type.

 

Skidz very graciously put it out there for anyone to ask a question, or express an opinion, and as a person who very strongly feels an association is overdue, I put forth mine. I guess I will have to further explain, while I have time before the beginning of round three US open coverage!

 

If you actually read my little rant, what I said was, “In its current state”. Being a fair person, I will have to agree that the choice of words, that HEPAC will never ever, ever, never, be the voice of industry professionals was a little strong. However, I will explain why I think this. There are many people who don’t even know about this association. There are still a lot of hard working guys/gals out there right now that have no clue about all this earth shattering debate. Here’s a question for the HEPAC directors: Do you think a new person with $65 dollars in hand will join when he/she reads some of the current, and historic replies, barbs, insults, issued whenever somebody speaks out of school? I ask you to connect the dots in what I mean by "current state", as I don't want to spark another law suit.

 

IMHO, that is one of the big problems. You have a wonderful opportunity to gather members and dues from the people who visit this site. Do not beat up on the so-called “naysayer’s”. Sure you have the usual people here who play devils advocate on everything, that’s the nature of open forums, but you need to be wary of the lurkers. Those who quietly come here looking for more info, and see what? “Naysayer’s” being threatened with law suits?

 

The message has to go beyond this forum, and you will need a little more than $65 X 70 = $4500.00. My intent here is not to destroy the hard work some of you have put in towards this worthy cause, but it's time to consider a tough decision for the health of the organization. Yes, D.M deserves credit and applause, but it is time to assess the current situation.

 

As I mentioned, I was one of the people in the early days willing to stick his neck out and try and gather momentum, but I became sick and tired of constant union talk, and brow beating. Black balling was in fact the wrong choice of words. I still maintain that the better way to go was to keep the groups small and start with the pilots to gather momentum, not because I’m a snob, because I twisted wrenches too, but because it would have been more practical. I have tremendous respect for engineers, who actually have to go to formal school to get their license. You now have members or potential members asking who’s agenda is going forward first pilots or engineers? What agenda I say?

 

I remain a person who firmly believes an association from a aviation safety stand point is long over due. I do hope it succeeds, despite my apparent belief it won’t. It just won’t get very far as it is now, and it won’t get my $65 bucks, which is a far more reasonable amount I might add. This is not a new concern, and goes way back to earlier debates. And yes, I did go back and try and find some of the polls and threads, but could not find them all. Some go as far back as the canadianaviation days I believe.

 

So, my apologies for the negative spin, but some of you have to stand back, and you will see that it was with good intent.

 

BTW, I think some of you need to read up a bit on SMS before you volunteer to become involved at this early stage in HEPAC. Baby steps, and be careful what you wish for.

 

Cheers everybody.

Anybody taking Phil over Tiger??? :shock:

[ame206350]

Do you think a new person with $65 dollars in hand will join when he/she reads some of the current, and historic replies, barbs, insults, issued whenever somebody speaks out of school? I ask you to connect the dots in what I mean by "current state", as I don't want to spark another law suit.

 

IMHO, that is one of the big problems. You have a wonderful opportunity to gather members and dues from the people who visit this site. Do not beat up on the so-called “naysayer’s”. Sure you have the usual people here who play devils advocate on everything, that’s the nature of open forums, but you need to be wary of the lurkers. Those who quietly come here looking for more info, and see what? “Naysayer’s” being threatened with law suits?

 

The message has to go beyond this forum, and you will need a little more than $65 X 70 = $4500.00. My intent here is not to destroy the hard work some of you have put in towards this worthy cause, but it's time to consider a tough decision for the health of the organization. Yes, D.M deserves credit and applause, but it is time to assess the current situation.

 

You now have members or potential members asking who’s agenda is going forward first pilots or engineers? What agenda I say?

 

I remain a person who firmly believes an association from a aviation safety stand point is long over due. I do hope it succeeds, despite my apparent belief it won’t. It just won’t get very far as it is now, and it won’t get my $65 bucks, which is a far more reasonable amount I might add.

 

I think some of you need to read up a bit on SMS before you volunteer to become involved at this early stage in HEPAC. Baby steps, and be careful what you wish for.

 

Well said.

[Guest Bullet Remington]

Interesting... So are you (and by extension HEPAC) suggesting that there is no need to establish duty time limitations for maintenance personnel? Do you believe that fatigue management is a "dead issue" because fatigue is not a hazard that should be controlled?

 

There have been many studies conducted indicating that fatigue is a legitimate hazard and it is somewhat surprising to hear that some in the industry may still need more evidence of the problem. How to mitigate the hazard is a worthy topic of discussion -- to suggest that yet more proof is required to determine if control of the hazard is warranted is discouraging.

 

I believe that fatigue management is not a dead issue and that a regulatory solution will be used to control the hazard. As I suggested in my earlier posts, I believe that it is a question of when the regulations will be brought forward, not if.

 

CD:

 

We have already established that I am NOT a Director in Hepac. If you look around you'll note that I have nothing indicating that I represent Hepac. Unless stated otherwise, and until I have authorization ( and I don't ever wish to have it) any opinions I express herein are mine own private opinions. I am a member of Hepac and I do support SOME of their ideals, others I don't. Those I don't I express in e mail. And those I do, I TRY not to express my opinions herein, otherwise the wrath of the enfantile is quickly vented. And at my age I don't need the foolishness! To state empahtically, I do NOT represent the interest nor opinions of Hepac nor in this post you quoted . The opinions expressed are mine alone!

 

And yes, I do consider the Duty times for Engineers a dead issue, and being a bold faced loud mouth opinionated SOB, I'll tell you why. ( I forgot OLD! So throw that in there too!!)

 

Firstly, TCCA folks ( the ones I have discussed this with) are/were so very concerned with the duty times of egineers that they commissioned a study. The study found that the duty times for ALL engineers (generally) were beyond the duty times of most other occupations and WAAAY beyond those of the Drivers. So much so that were the drivers to work these hours the average of a severe áccident'happening were astronomical! Further, The whines from the pilot's would drown out that of a Lama pulling max pitch!! ( Cheap shot there!!)

 

Further, the study showed that while the PLANK engineers had a tendency to be well beyond the fatigue level a normal shift would impose, the Fling Wing Engineers, while their schedule was all over the place, were very well rested. The prime reason? The Plank engineers were browbeatenand harrassed whenever they tried to grab a few winks during their breaks. Fling Wing engineers, on the other hand, were well rested DESPITE their schedule. The reason was attributed to the Fling Wing folks crawling into the parts trailer and/or the Field truck and dozing off when ever the machine was out .

 

Further, TCCA don't have a clue on how to enact nor enforce duty times for AMEs. Further, nobody that I've talked with, inclduing those in Hottaaahwha? , Calgary nor the Edmonton pink palace, is much interested in getting directly involved in the program. One of the reasons cited was the gaggle cluster Fcuk fest that came with the duty times imposition of the Flight crews, particularly from the Fling Wing side.

 

So do I consider the matter a dead issue? Yes I do. Is this the opinion of Hepac? I have no idea, I didn't ask them their opinion and they didn't express it. And in that I don't represent them, you'll have to ask them.

 

Is there an need for some kind of legislated duty times and limits? Yes and No. Based upon my experience, the Pplank World is in dire need of it, the helicopter idustry, I don't see a need. AGAIN, this is based upon my own experiences. When ever I was tired ( doing Fling WIng contracts) I crawled inside the truck and snosed for an hour or two.I've NEVER had anybody whine , complain nor give me grief for it. In the Plank world, I've seen guys get the axe ( lose a contract) because they snoozed in the cargo pit of a B737 during the lunch hour. I know folks that have driven through red lights, driven past gheir homes, and own completely Moronic old fool, living in Airdrie and drove all the way to Red Deer!! All from being too tired! But again, these were folks in the Plank World.

 

Again, I never experienced anything negative, nor have I been fatigue to the point of falling asleep or micro sleep mode, as I have been in the Plank World. Given a choice of working long hours, even if they are outside, I would pick Fling WIng over Plank world any day. And in closing, IN MY OPINION, I see no require to dicatate the working / duty times for Fling Wing Engineers.

 

Others may feel free to differ. AND again, all opinions expressed are my own!

[412driver]

PS: And thanks for the email congratulating me on starting HEPAC as you found the paper work to onerous. Just who the h*ll do you think you are accusing me of blackballing you. Would you please indicate where and when, the records are still available on this site, so go back and prove it or I will sue you for slander.

 

Otherwise, you should apologize or I"ll ask that you be kicked of the site.

 

Make my day, Don

l

 

Skidz, you and Helilog56 have my respect for what you are trying to do. I have spoken with BK and I do like the idea but as long as a certain person is at the helm or anywhere near it...count me out.

 

It's not the money.....strictly the principle

 

"make my day"......what a joke