Air Time Vs. Flight Time

[RotorGypsy]

Just wondering about the thoughts of the public here,

 

Air time VS. flight time or basically "running time".

 

After my flight training, I realized years later, that the Robinson A/C hobbs can be set to work off the manifold pressure and not the collective. That's start up, briefings on the ground, waiting for clearance and so on. My school did this, so how much air time did I come out with?

 

Right away working in Alberta I adopted "time up" "time down" but some come out of school now logging "running time" start to finish. Might I get left in the dust? I did a 6 min flight with 17min "running time" because of loading and unloading and shut down the other day. I realize for longer flights the difference wouldn't be so great but it has made me think.

 

I'm sticking to "old school" but am interested in what people might have to say. Requirements are coming down anyway but pay scales are still out there. Lets argue both ways, in the end it doesn't really matter, but an interesting topic none the less.

 

Happy Canada Day!

RG

 

 

[RTR]

Flight time is the time counted from when the aircraft moved under its own power until it is shut down. (engine(s) off).

 

Air time is the time counted from skids up to skids down.

 

Most operators pay you for billed time. As far as billing and paying the pilot goes that is up to you and your employer as to what goes on the flight ticket (many bill flight time or some combination of air / flight time, and pay thre pilot accordingly).

 

You should be logging flight time in your personal logbook however, as that is the time you are really in control of a powered aircrfat.

 

I should point out that in the journey log of the aircraft you must only log the Air Time. This is important, as all the maintenance and overhaul criteria is based on this time. (skids up to skids down time only, irregardless of how much running time is spent on the ground).

 

Pay wise, most companies I have been with pay the pilot from the hours billed out on the flight ticket. Makes sense because you are the one that earned that revenue.

 

cheers,

RTR

[sirlandsalot]

I agree with RTR, It more comes down to bill time, good ol' rev. Naturaly you would like to bill run time as that precious fuel is being burnt. For example on sampling jobs there can be 10, 11 hrs of run time and 6, 7 hrs of skids up time. If you log the run time, you will timex and the 100 hr inspection will come in a week and a half.....no good for you, no good for your engineer and no good for your employer, but good for all of you if you bill the run time and log the skids up.

 

As far as your pay scale goes, it may take longer however you will bill more revenue hours and in turn be payed more. After a season with hundreds of hours it can add up for you and the employer..maybe you will get a raise for making so much money!!! :up: Cheers

 

[Skidz]

I usually log whatever goes on the flight ticket, except for unused mins.

 

As for TC's definition of Flight time, go to the following:

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/...rs/gapl0502.htm

[TopFuel]

Based on the Cars...the aircraft is to be moving under it's own power (not have blades turning, but moving). Airplanes taxiing is why they seperate flight from air.

 

I agree wit rotor Gypsy. Some of us are getting left in the dust by guys claming "running time" while sitting on a lease sites.

 

Question for RTR and the guys on the engine running part. If you are hot fueling, are you flying the machine? If I dont even need to be inside the helicopter to log time I am going to go work with Conrad at Helijet and log 500+ hours a year on the 76!!

 

My 2 cents.

[RotorGypsy]

I usually log whatever goes on the flight ticket, except for unused mins.

 

As for TC's definition of Flight time, go to the following:

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/...rs/gapl0502.htm

 

Thanks for the link Skidz, I guess flight time is all "running time". They did that a few years ago too. Doah!

 

Thank you RTR too, it's all so simple really.

 

TopFuel, check out the link!

 

Cheers

[Skidz]

Just to be clear on my previous post: Air time goes in the journey log. Flight/billed time goes in the pilot log.

 

There's a reason why AME's aren't allowed to do run-ups (or taxi, for that matter) on helicopters. Only licenced pilots are allowed to sit in the PIC seat and do an actual start. If a licenced pilot is required to be in that seat, then he should be allowed to log the time. Period.

[Skidbiter]

Just to be clear on my previous post: Air time goes in the journey log. Flight/billed time goes in the pilot log.

 

There's a reason why AME's aren't allowed to do run-ups (or taxi, for that matter) on helicopters. Only licenced pilots are allowed to sit in the PIC seat and do an actual start. If a licenced pilot is required to be in that seat, then he should be allowed to log the time. Period.

 

 

Um, not sure if that is exactly correct or not....what about training pilots not yet licensed, they sit in the PIC seat and perform starts? (Just nit picking)

 

 

On the flight/air time thing, I have only ever put air time (the same as what is in the aircraft journey log) into my log book.

If transport Canada wanted to do a check on your total time or time credited to an endorsement etc, they would have to check the time in your log book against the aircraft you said you flew, and if you are logging flight/revenue time in your book, it ain't going to match up!

So not sure how you get on with that one?

 

In NZ, you log what ever time is in the aircraft journey log, if you want to put flight time in the journey log you are more than welcome, but who would want to do that?

 

My 2c

[Billy Hill]

Not sure why anyone would want to keep track of "running time" in their personal logbook. For me I am curious to know how much time I've been up in the air, not sitting on the ground.

 

I really wouldn't worry about being left in the dust behind everyone else. You do a good job and the work will keep coming your way. And I definitely bill the customer as soon as I hit the starter to right when I roll off the throttle. Journey Log and personal logbook, skids up to skids down.

 

Just the way I do it.

[shakey]

So heres another scenerio. If you do 20 starts a day and some of your trips are only a couple of minutes ( Like alot are from oil lease to oil lease) do you charge .05 per trip, as far as I am concerned if you are in control of the helicopter even on the ground its bankable time.

 

If you are out of the machine for example hot fueling and no one is at the controls then you are probably breaking some law somewhere. As for The hobbs meter, I have timed my skids up to skids down and compared it to the hobbs meter and if I went by the hobbs I would be ripping myself off in flight pay and log book time.

 

I do also recall flight school as well when I spent alot of time on the ground paying good money to get yelled at and every second of that went in my log book.