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Air Time Vs. Flight Time

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There's a reason why AME's aren't allowed to do run-ups (or taxi, for that matter) on helicopters.


AME's can perform ground runs on helicopters if they are competent to do so, Here's a quote from CAR's


Starting and Ground Running of Aircraft Engines


602.10 (1) No person shall start an engine of an aircraft unless


(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft;


(B) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving; or


(c ) in the case of a seaplane, the aircraft is in a location from which any movement of the aircraft will not endanger persons or property.




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I always understood that an engineer couldnt do a start simply because of insurance clause's...not a TC reg.

For the arguement here, isnt our job also systems management??? If im monitoring a system...i log it...plain and simple...I have had Oil cooler's explode on the ground before and had to shut her down....If im there monitoring that aircraft...Im loggin it...As well...the last time i checked my Pax never dissappeared when i set on the ground, I have to monitor them as well as long as the AC blades are in motion.

As for the earlier comment about TC issuing an infraction for incorrect times, there are A/C logs out there that allow a column for flight and Air time. If there is not a column in that A/C logbook...write it in your own. Thats what the comment section is there for.

But thats's just my 2 cents...DC

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As far as TC auditing your personal log, they would be checking not only the a/c journey log but any other supporting documentation (duty time, flight tickets, timesheets, etc.). Different companies have different journey logs. Some have a flight time column, while others don't.


As for AMEs doing run ups in helicopters, they aren't allowed to do them because the risks of an inadvertent take-off is very high, as compared to the risk of an inadvertent take-off with a pank. Imagine an AME ground-strobing a machine and one of his wires gets looped around the collective and he pulls on it... :shock:


A buddy of mine works heavy maintenance at Air Canada in Dorval. He regularly taxis Airbuses and 767s around the maintenance facility on their own power. If he needs to taxi accross to line maintenance (and talk to ground control), then he needs a pilot on board.


Back to logging flight time vs air time:


I've always logged flight time in my logbook. It's legal, so why should I not? Most company's payscales are based on your total time, not PIC airtime. Why penalise yourself and have to wait longer before you change levels on the scale?


PS: Have your logbook certified regularly. I have mine certified at least once per year. That way TC and employers are less likely to question it's integrity (and your's)...

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this doesn't say anything about logging "air time". see "g"......




Personal Logs


401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of


(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)


(B) recency.


(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (B) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:


(a) the date of the flight;


(B) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;


© the flight crew position in which the holder acted;


(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;


(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;


(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;


(g) the flight time;


(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and


(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.


(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person


(a) is the holder of the log; or


(B) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.



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I wonder where the saying beating a dead horse came from?







The argument was over the definition of what constitutes flight time vs air time in helicopters. The definition of flight time in CARS is the time from which the aircraft first moves under it's own power to the time it comes to a complete stop. TC issued a policy letter in 2005 amending this definition as it applies to helicopters on skids to be from the time the main rotor blades start turning intil they come to a complete stop.


You always log flight time in your personal log, but if you use the CARs definition of flight time, you're actually logging air time...


Capice ? :)

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Boy you guys certainly like to confuse yourselves;


What the CARS is saying to you is the following; Anytime a PILOT is at the controls of an aircraft and it is under power on the ground to when it returns from a flight and is on the ground, is considered "FLIGHT TIME" for the pilots log book.


When an aircraft leaves the ground and later returns is considered "AIR TIME" and is entered into the aircraft log book and is what is charged to the customer (if there is one) as this is the actual operating cost to the operator and what an hourly rate is based on.


You will find that people working on XX dollars per hour, it's based on the air time charged to the customer.



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hello skidz,


i "capice" this thread quite handily. i was just trying to help out, as i happened on the reference while researching something else. the CARS reference was for the previous posters who are actually logging "air time", versus the TC policy letter amended definition of "flight time". i personally don't care how other people log their time, but the information was posted for those who are interested. i apologize to those who are bored with this topic, yet can't seem to avoid the reply button....



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