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RotorGypsy

Air Time Vs. Flight Time

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Sling:

 

Most tariffs have or should have a statement that says, using gravity survey as an example:

 

"Any succession of flights that do not require the helicopter to be shut down will be charged as one continuous flight."

 

Most smart operators will have a statement in their operations manual stating that a helicopter we not be restarted until at least twenty minutes has passed since shutdown.

 

Every cycle put on the engine, starter and battery is an additional cost to the operator.

(shortening the life of said components)

 

You might also put a rule in your tariff that states that no flight will be less than ten minutes duration. It's actually not worth starting up for less than that.

 

When you respond to a request for proposal or just a purchase order for a couple of days make sure that the client has a copy of your tariff. Stating that you will do the work in accordance with your tariff on file at your office is not acceptable, should you get into a discussion about charges or whatever and have to go to court.

 

Cheers, Don

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Well actually Brock Landers your company is overbilling their clients and the clients are letting them get away with it. You are not required or is there any excuse for billing anybody for flight time.

 

Maybe my english is not understandable. AIR TIME IS the only time that goes against the life times associated with the engine, airframe and all associated components. For those that don't seem to understand, that is when you are airborne.

 

When you are renting a helicopter the hourly rate is what it costs the company to operate that helicopter + profit and overhead which includes your salary.

If perchance your books (journey log) was audited against the hours charged and the hours entered in the log book, would they be the same.

 

If they are not the same, your company is stealing.

 

If they are the same you are still stealing, as ground time is not billable as there is no cost associated with ground time.

 

It is normally reffered to as honesty.

 

Try again to justify it.

 

Cheers, Don

 

If both parties in an agreement or contract understand and agree to the terms. There is no "stealing" and there is no need to have to justify it, or feel it is dishonest, providing the customer is pleased with the service, and outcome.

 

There is a cost to running on the ground: Fuel (not so cheap lately), particularly if you’re at flight idle.

 

Your recent post #61 makes for the most part perfect sense, but seems to contradict what you’ve been saying.

 

To rehash again, sorry:

 

If you have a .2 min. per start in the tarriff and fly 6 minutes then .1 goes to the airframe time and .2 is billed to the client.

 

“A succession of flights not requiring a shut down billed as one”? 1 hr running: 30 minutes in the air and 30 minutes on the ground = .5 to the airframe and 1 hr billed. Could be 20-30 landings in that 1 hr. Anyone billing .5, is not charging correctly, unless that is the only way to get the job, and if that is the case this industry is heading for less profitability.

 

Nothing dishonest about this billing practice, especially if it is actually stated in the tariff as you said. It seems pretty basic really.

 

What is the purpose of no start within 20 minutes of a shut down? (post #61)

 

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“A succession of flights not requiring a shut down billed as one”? 1 hr running: 30 minutes in the air and 30 minutes on the ground = .5 to the airframe and 1 hr billed. Could be 20-30 landings in that 1 hr. Anyone billing .5, is not charging correctly, unless that is the only way to get the job, and if that is the case this industry is heading for less profitability.

 

I was using gravity survey as an example and what I meant was that at take-off the clock starts ticking and stops at the final landing back home, it is all AIR TIME and put in the log book as such and billed to the customer, with out nickle and dimming.

AIR TIME reflects the hourly rate, which is the cost to the operator. Fuel is either supplied by the client or by the operator at cost. In other words, the hours billed for should be identical to the AIR TIME in the log book, fuel extra if supplied by the operator and what ever other crew expenses. There is no other cost to the operator for that hourly rate.Nothing dishonest about this billing practice, especially if it is actually stated in the tariff as you said. It seems pretty basic really.

 

What is the purpose of no start within 20 minutes of a shut down? (post #61)

 

Have you ever tried to do reapted short hops and suddenly finding out that you are in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. Battery has to have long enough flights to recharge and motoring the engine to cool it down, takes quite a bit of juice. 20 minutes will give you less residual heat and keep the customer from playing games and trying to save a buck with short flights. If you have a minimum ten minute flight (or whatever) and 20 minute (or more) between flights, nobody will be playing games. Normally if the customer is aware of these conditions, he will plan accordingly. If you are moving crews on a fire and don't shutdown, it becomes a succession flight and is billed from start to finish as AIR TIME.

 

It takes five minutes to write these conditions in your tariff, but you have to make sure that you state that your tariff is part of any contract or work order and you fax the client a copy.

 

This is free info from an ex contracting guy, do with it as you wish. No charge.

 

Cheers, Don

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“A succession of flights not requiring a shut down billed as one”? 1 hr running: 30 minutes in the air and 30 minutes on the ground = .5 to the airframe and 1 hr billed. Could be 20-30 landings in that 1 hr. Anyone billing .5, is not charging correctly, unless that is the only way to get the job, and if that is the case this industry is heading for less profitability.

 

I was using gravity survey as an example and what I meant was that at take-off the clock starts ticking and stops at the final landing back home, it is all AIR TIME and put in the log book as such and billed to the customer, with out nickle and dimming.

AIR TIME reflects the hourly rate, which is the cost to the operator. Fuel is either supplied by the client or by the operator at cost. In other words, the hours billed for should be identical to the AIR TIME in the log book, fuel extra if supplied by the operator and what ever other crew expenses. There is no other cost to the operator for that hourly rate.Nothing dishonest about this billing practice, especially if it is actually stated in the tariff as you said. It seems pretty basic really.

 

What is the purpose of no start within 20 minutes of a shut down? (post #61)

 

Have you ever tried to do reapted short hops and suddenly finding out that you are in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. Battery has to have long enough flights to recharge and motoring the engine to cool it down, takes quite a bit of juice. 20 minutes will give you less residual heat and keep the customer from playing games and trying to save a buck with short flights. If you have a minimum ten minute flight (or whatever) and 20 minute (or more) between flights, nobody will be playing games. Normally if the customer is aware of these conditions, he will plan accordingly. If you are moving crews on a fire and don't shutdown, it becomes a succession flight and is billed from start to finish as AIR TIME.

 

It takes five minutes to write these conditions in your tariff, but you have to make sure that you state that your tariff is part of any contract or work order and you fax the client a copy.

 

This is free info from an ex contracting guy, do with it as you wish. No charge.

 

Cheers, Don

 

 

 

100% right Mac.....to the others not really to shure still,"in a word" , "Do buisness....or do your job"

 

Hey Mac.......dyou need a PIC?

 

B)

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I agree with the "air time " billing, since I left the VFR business I have discovered that billing and what goes in the pilots log book is defiantly engine time. both pilots log PIC and both pilots log all time from engine start till engine shut down ( even if they are not in the machine), welcome to offshore or EMS. and you wonder why they want 1000 hrs MPIC? because they know that 50% is actually co pilot ( at least ) and another 20% is BS. leaving 300 hrs of actual MPIC. wish I had have known that when I got started in the twins. cool eh?

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Some good advice Don. Everyone does things a bit different, it seems.

 

It sounds like your entering ground running time, while getting crews in and out, as airtime to the a/c total airframe time. Thus making it identical to the billing, to insure there isn't the appearance of ripping off the client.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this practice.

 

 

 

 

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I agree with Blacmac, once you lift off the clock is ticking until you land and shut down (succession flight) anything in between ie. dropping off crews is billable time. I believe your flight ticket and Air time in your journey log do not need to match as it is none of your customers buisness in the first place to be looking at your journey log.

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Well actually Brock Landers your company is overbilling their clients and the clients are letting them get away with it. You are not required or is there any excuse for billing anybody for flight time.

 

Maybe my english is not understandable. AIR TIME IS the only time that goes against the life times associated with the engine, airframe and all associated components. For those that don't seem to understand, that is when you are airborne.

 

When you are renting a helicopter the hourly rate is what it costs the company to operate that helicopter + profit and overhead which includes your salary.

If perchance your books (journey log) was audited against the hours charged and the hours entered in the log book, would they be the same.

 

If they are not the same, your company is stealing.

 

If they are the same you are still stealing, as ground time is not billable as there is no cost associated with ground time.

 

It is normally reffered to as honesty.

 

Try again to justify it.

 

Cheers, Don

I disagree that the company is "stealing". If there is no cost associated other than the aircraft running??? wtf is insurance? The girl at the front desk answering the phone? Hangar space? The guy writing the SMS manual?? And so on...there are many other costs associated with the aircraft other than the rotating parts, in fact, the rotating parts and pilot wages for most operators are not the major expenses. Think that statement through and I think you would find most operators would just have to raise their tariff rates if it was only skids up to skids down. If its burnin' its earnin' :shock: Its not dishonesty, its just different billing than air time.

 

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I agree with Blacmac, once you lift off the clock is ticking until you land and shut down (succession flight) anything in between ie. dropping off crews is billable time. I believe your flight ticket and Air time in your journey log do not need to match as it is none of your customers buisness in the first place to be looking at your journey log.

 

 

Yes thats right. Our journey log books have a column for ops time and a seperate one for airtime, which is what the maintenance schedule is based on. No cheating no stealing and no need to justify anything. Flying in the oilfeild there are lots of take offs and landings and alot of pig sending and receiving. I always ask the customer if they want me to shutdown when they are going to be less than 10 mminutes, if they say no then i keep charging.

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