Firehawk In Canada ?

[Mike Reyno]

According to Brown, the conversion from S-70 (These are S-70s, not UH-60s) to Firehawk is about US$1 million a pop. These would not have the complete EMS-type configuration that the LA Firehawks have. Keep in mind too that there is a company in the southern US flying a UH-60 with a bucket, so who says they would even have to convert them with a tank. But that's a whole new story of tank vs bucket.

[skullcap]

So for 9 million a pop you'd have a specialized aircraft that few if any Canadians would have experience on, wheels which are not the best in most pads, fast bucket machine. Visibility out of this a/c is poor to say the least for confined area work, instrument panel is larger than some small towns so would probably need a spotter. Probably need a bubble door to see out to do vertical reference work so Vne would drop. What a crock of .......!

 

If you wanted to put the tank on have to put on the extended landing gear....that was what, a million and a half.

 

There are used 214ST's for sale, super fast heavy lifter with skids. 214B's out there, put tank on goes fast or bucket like crazy, or ......hey hire us(commercial operators) to do it like we have everywhere else. We work cheap, train ourselves, and maybe, just maybe have experience fighting fire. Not many countries in the world have such a large force of wandering band of airborne fire fighters who when not needed do something else to keep the wolves away. Jeez, why not give out some decent contracts and keep us folks in business.

 

One of the most populated provinces with huge tracts of forests has the least amount of medium lift aircraft per capita in Canada, and they want to purchase specialized aircraft to fight fire? Guess what put out contracts, this builds income within the country which inturn gives out more jobs which builds a bigger taxbase which in the whole brings more money into the economy of Canada. Not sure but maybe the MNR pilots may not be quite so pleased to have the number of pilots and engineers DECREASED as the whole rotory wing budget gets sucked up in only a few helicopters.

 

So other than Sikorsky and the Hong Kong gov't who the **** benefits from this?

 

I more bothered than a bin full of bees.

[mawddawg]

Mike : Did you check out the link I posted? If I read right the LA a/c are not standard cat. Is that what you get from it? The Hong Kong a/c left USA WITHOUT A STANDARD C OF A ! This would mean they would most likely have to be given to Sikorsky to be recertified. Kind of one way street . They will charge about 3 to 4 mil to convert as not to compete with a new firehawk. It is called a Monopoly as far as I can see and the Canadian taxpayer is paying What ? to fund a study to see if they want to play? It is not easy to show conformity to a standard C of A all of the drawings and manuals are usually with the Manufacture. There is a lot of MD 500s in Israel for sale with this exact problem. What do you guys think of this math

 

Purchase 3 a/c $8,000,000 usd x 1.32 = 10,560,000 each x3 = 31,680,000 CND

recert to firehawk est.@ $2,000,000 usd x 1.32 = 2,640,000 each x3 = 7,920,000 CND

water tanks/extended gear $1,300,000 usd x 1.32 = 1,716,000 each x3 = 5,148,000 CND

for ground support equipment $ 600,000 usd x 1.32 = 792,000 792,000 CND

--------------

$45,540,000 CND

 

 

 

 

Hourly support cost from Sikorsky 600 hrs min per year for 10 years X 3 =1800 x $989.00 =1,780,280x1.32=$ 2,349,864 CNDx 10 years with cap rate of average 8% = $25,378,531 CND

 

insurance ??? help me here new operation no track record on type, irreplaceable aircraft what you say 7% ? 15,000,000

x 7%= $1,050,000 per year x 10 years = $10,500,000 CND

 

crew cost 18 pilots @ 75,000,000 year =$1,350,000 CND x 10 =$13,500,000 CNDx 3% increase= $13,905,000 CND

 

Maint cost 9 AME'S @ $50,000,000 year = $450,000 CND x 10 = $4,500,000x 3% increase= $ 4,635,000 CND

----------------

$99,958,531 CND

divided by 10 year plan = $9,995,853 divided by 1800.00 hours a year = $5553.25 CND per hour

 

Training ??

 

Spares ??

 

Hanger ??

 

Overhead staff ??

 

Cost for 10 year contract at cost should be about $6000 CND per hour @ 600 hours per year ! And they cry so hard for a

205A1++ at $2100 CND per hour with a 4 day hire!!!

[skullcap]

exactly!!!

[Heli Ops]

The cost to convert those HK aircraft are about $3.5m USD at least and thats coming from Jeanette who is the Firehawk program person at Sikorsky. They are nowhere near worth the price Brown is asking according to Sikorsky sources. Sikorsky was actually offered the aircraft to convert and onsell to LA County and a couple of other potential customers but they didnt want to get involved in it. The HK aircraft were also treated as ex mil aircraft incountry and all parts etc had to be kept in special stores and any changes to them had to be approved through congress because they were classed as a controlled item.

 

The LA County machines are restricted cat and are machines that were destined, I think, for Brunei, hence the radome on the front. Base model price for Firehawk is around $11.5mil and thats a very basic aircraft. I think Lee Benson said their ones are around the $15 mark.

 

LA County dont use a spotter out of their aircraft and according to pilots vis is not that bad, considering. Not my opionion, just their feedback. All the time I was at LA County they seemed to have one in the hangar. Maint man hours to flight hours for these aircraft is very high and thats open info from LA County.

 

Belly tanks vs buckets for the Firehawk, whole different kettle of fish. If they fly it from the right seat as LA County do then it would be a ***** to see what you are doing as seat is quite a ways in from the door and if flown from the left not sure how high the collective comes up. Mind you could always stick a dart window in the floor.

 

Heli Ops

[helicopterjim]

Firehawk is an overrated piece of junk that can't do what they say it can. All you have to do is read through the flight manual and you will find that to do what they say it can do it will be 18 percent overgross - at sealevel and 15 degrees. But it sure looks pretty.......

[N1]

Are the LA County machines Restricted or Public aircraft?

 

I think may find they fall into the latter category - which is why they can do, what they do?

 

If the former HK machines were operated by the military (or a branch of the military), they are ineligible for Restricted Category Certification in the US.

 

Restricted Category is limited to aircraft that were formerly operated by the US military only - no foreign military aircraft permitted.

 

AS an aside, didn't Helicopter Transport have a Restricted CH-54B on a fire in Canada last summer?

[Heli Ops]

N1 - They ARE restricted catergory.

 

The Govt Flying Service in HK is treated as quasi military operation.

 

Heli Ops

[Randy_G]

Thanks for the update Ned. I was going by info that was 6-7 months old. We all know things never change in this biz.

 

As far as the 212 argument goes, if you read my post, Bell would only sell 6, so your math is a bit off. :shock:

 

Why have their own aircraft, well look at last July/August. BC and Alberta had tied up almost every medium in the country. I was in Kenora on an IA machine with an active 400 Ha fire, and Ont couldn't find a medium anywhere. Besides, it isn't the Cdn taxpayer who will be supporting these a/c, just those from Ont. My taxmoney goes to King Ralph, and the breweries that he supports.

 

Cheers

[skullcap]

Then buy 412's or used 212's.

 

 

If the logic is that they need the aircraft when it is hot, where did the one you were flying come from, long term contract or short? Either way you would not have been there theoretically as the Firehawk would have taken your place. Where then do you think you have been, lounging around Dryden waiting for a call, beans, your machine probably would have been located somewhere working. Last summer was an anomoly in that many aircraft were required in part of July and August to fight urban interface fires. This consumed way more aircraft than if these fires were to have occured in remote country. The first part of the summer was dismal. To my way of thinking is if they need more aircraft hire more aircraft. This way the gov't would have much more control of what they want to use and can flex one way or the other depending on budget contraints within the province. What would happen if a new gov came in as said "these firehawks cost too much" and sell em all. That would just prove that the money is wasted. If there are good contracts out to operators it is very easily justified as where the money is spent. Of course maybe they could put ems kits in the firehawks and turf part of the "bandag" program. really screw things up.

 

If the arguement is that they need more aircraft in Ontario then put out a long term contract, let the operators find them. Look how many 205A-1++ are in Canada now compared to 10 years ago. The helicopters are out there.

 

As far as only Ontario tax dollars used then this is even more of an argument to use commercial operators, as mentioned there are few mediums in Ontario(more all the time) but one of the reasons is, that the local operators do not have winter work to offset the gamble of getting a medium for summer as some operators in the west have. Get out some descent contracts for the local operators to bid on and watch them get more aircraft. This benfits the local economy more than spending MILLIONS of dollars outside the province procurring NEW aircraft. By the way Canada is a whole and we don't need to get into whose tax dollars do what, CANADORE COLLEGE, remember how just that was to any pilot who didn't come from Ontario. This is not meant as a jab but as reminder that helicopters are federally regulated thus federally used(some exceptions I know).

 

In my opinion this ridiculous, justify in numbers, (dollars and sense) why buy firehawks. Statements in the LA proposal of "need safer aircraft" are blanket statements to gov't bureucrats who know nothing of the such.

 

 

The visibility out of a Firehawk is not a problem when tanking a fire as are going forward, have had the pleasure of having many brewskies with military pilots who will attest to the poor visabilty while doing confined area ops. No problem with spotter!