Fatique Risk Management

[Blackmac]

For all concerned the Notice of Proposed Amendment with regards to Fatigue Risk Management will not be in force until at least Dec 04, if then. Much has to be done to cover all aspects and different work area's of the amendment and who does it actually effect, i.e. airline ops, helicopter ops, o/h shops etc.

 

The policy paper on Safety Management Sytem was discussed at length and will be worked on in accordance TC's mandate and re-dicussed at a later date before implimentation.

 

For the info of the helicopter industry, very few people from the industry were there and the spoke person was of course HAC, who in my opinion spent more time on nitpicking words than actually supplying any constructive observations.

 

I do think that the policies being discussed effect the operators more than they effect the CEO or whatever of HAC.

 

Is it possible that the operators need a wake-up call.

 

IMHO

 

Don McDougall

[jetbox]

Maybe if the opertunity presents itself again, we should all put all little money in the pot and send a knowledgeable guy like Ron Strobl to represent us!!!

I would hate to see this thing get implemented while we all stand around like jerks with our fingers up our butts!!!!

[arctic_front]

Fatigue Risk Management?? what kind of TC-speak is that? I am glad that there is finally action on this subject. I think we have all worked so many hours as to be classified as dangerously tired on many occasions. Its a small wonder that the effects of that haven't showed up on the accident statistics in a more obvious way up until now. I can remember when the pilot duty day came into effect, and the operators all cried " the sky is falling, the sky is falling ", but this many years later, they all seemed to have found a way to deal with it. I think the initial implementation will be a bit rocky, but like the pilot duty day, it will all work out to a fair and manageable system that can be applied efficiently for all. My one belief is that once we are working under this type of rule, our 'stock' as engineers will go up as the respect and importance of what we do while everybody else is sleeping becomes felt. Maybe we will be regarded as more than simply a 'grease-monkey'?

 

the reason for the delay in this being implemented until now has been strong lobbying by the operators, helped by a shortage of engineers. I have never believed there was a shortage, just an industry that "ate its own young". I know far too many engineers that got out after being used up and discarded by operators that paid little, and asked too much. The industry is crying the blues because there is no experienced pilots, and now engineers...who's fault is that??

 

A fellow told me this summer that the Quebec Cartel bought up another western based operator this spring, and first order of bussines was to anounce an across the board lowering of wages. From what this fellow told me, the crew got up and walked out of the meeting en-mass. Way to go guys! If we don't stand up to these people and say enough is enough, the status quo will continue. That includes hours of work

[Blackmac]

I thought I would resurrect this thread for Arctic Front as he has shown some interest in it, as should most other people.

 

Any new idea's, so we are not caught with our finger up bum or whatever.

 

TC did not set a deadline for responce as they have a tendacy to change their mind.

 

It is supposed to be by the end of the year, so don't wait till the last minute or think that HAC is going to be there on your behalf, they have already given a no brainer responce at the last meeting.

 

Look after your own interests, through association.

 

Cheers, Don

[Blackmac]

Arctic Front: Looks like we both had the same idea, GOOD POST.

 

I only hope we can wake up more people.

 

Cheers, Don

[amodao]

I would like to see the day when engineers, bound by a fixed 14-15 hour duty day, could keep track of their own 30, 60 , 90 day totals. Like the pilots, TC will give an operator an out inregards to unforseen maintenance action requirements and an extension to the hours worked will be adjusted on a 30/60/90 days basis. With aviation falling under the Federal hour averaging system it will be difficult for the govenment to regulate employee hours when this system was implemented to address cyclic industries such as transportation. When it comes down to the nitty gritty it is up to the individual AME to know their limit and if the regulation passes it still won't fix the underlying issues facing Canada's aviation industry. This issue has been batted around the CARAC for years and even with input from various AME associations it is still TC that decides whether or not a CAR is implemented.

I am not personally concerned or worried because like all things, including food, it all eventually turns into sheep dip. :censored:

[3BX2]

You've all heard of Pilots double crewing on a fire, ever heard of a company double crewing an Engineer???? Only way that remotely happens is if a company has 2 aircraft on that fire.

 

Poor wrench is doing a phase on a '12 ever other day.....PLUS babysitting 2 pilots for 18 hours !

[Mole]

Its not the helicopters that take up your time its the fuel moves, aircraft refuleling, ops gear repairs and those pesky customers. Maybe a engineer performing a 15 hour duty day actually wrenching on an aircraft should seek additional help. If the wrench can't manage his time to do the fixing then the company should send out a 100 Hr wonder to do the ops gear, fueling and customer relation duties and let the engineer rest. Unless its a heavy I don't think a aircraft requires more than one wrench to do routine maintenance and inspections in the field.

:bleh:

[Guest graunch1]

Interesting conversation. The biggest problem I see in all of this is the AME themselves. Personally I have put in 24 hour days when the aircraft just had to get out. Oftm you are expected to be tough and "do your bit" to ensure the a/c is on the gate on time ("don't give me any of that Human Factors crap--make sure the a/c is ready for 06:00"). Most AMEs have such a strong work ethic that they think nothing of going the extra mile to make it work instead of pulling a pilot thing and saying . "I'm too tired" who's the dummy ??

 

 

It is ok to pull a long shift once in a while but when it becomes the normal mode of operation because the company won't hire anymore staff then it becomes dangerous.

I once worked for 3 months on a project that required 12 hours per day 6-7 days per week.. We decided to only work 6 days per week and rest on the 7th. After 2 months of this we were making all kinds of minor dumb mistakes. What most people don't realize is that the body cannot recover in 24 hours from cronic fatigue.

 

All this being said, TC has its head so far up you know where that they have no concept of the hours AMEs put in. At a AME conference a couple years ago some twinkle-toes from Ottawa announced the results of a survey TC did that showed that many AMES were constantly fatigued and short of sleep. She seemed surprized at the results (as any 9-3 buareucrat would be). The 300 or so AMEs in the room just nodded their heads and collectively muttered "Yup, so what's new"

 

I think a new rule should be incorporated but I can't see it being administed by the AMO who are the original problem in ht efirst place due to poor planning, lack of resources and tightness of wallets

[Elvis]

Execellent post graunch.

 

:up: :up: :up: