Mountain Winds

[3BX2]

Earlier someone made a comment about being able to get away with playing downwind in an Astar with light winds. I'll probably get chewed out for this but, when an Astar decides its not happy it can really kick your A**. Nine times out of ten you'll get away with it, maybe more. That one time is enough to keep my nose into wind. High winds in an Astar in the mountains brings up another issue, servo transparency. Been there, done that, filled my pants.

 

Good safe attitude Skidmark!

 

Anyone who thinks that they can get away with disregarding basic mtn rules because their machine is "foolproof" is actually ... a fool.

 

 

Elan, thanks for mentioning the OKANAGAN Mountain school. The infamous Cod-father and his band of royal cod-fishers merely bought it in '89.

 

 

 

 

[Helilog56]

Some very good to excellent posts made here.

 

If I may add some "do's (and don'ts).

 

- do study your flight manual performance charts (close attention to supplements and OGE),

- do understand the effects of not just the wind, but huge differences from inefficiencies in thrust lost from thin air (DA),

- do understand LTE and critical wind azimuths.....having said that, be very aware of the amount of t/r being used, at lower speeds and high power settings,

- do keep your rotor disk loaded as much as possible and approaches as shallow as possible,

- do have a plan for where and how you are going to position your aircraft at your landing site,

- do understand that high DA adds slower response from the aircraft after control inputs and may affect c of g more than expected/calculated.

- do utilize your gov trim (if available) to maintain N2 on the high side

- do pay closer attention ti N1 limits to avoid N2/Nr drooping.

- do watch those TOT, T5, ITT limits,

- do pay closer attention to sunrise/sunset tables...daylight is always shorter in the mountains!

- do "always" have survival gear on board, (flight plan of course!)

- and a "BIG" don't.........do "NOT", ever let someone talk you into a situation, that may exceed your knowledge, experience and comfort level!

- ah ya.....do take a mountain course.

 

Please feel free to add to the above list!!

[Black Mike]

Hey all,

I am happy to see that some of the techniques that I have learned in the past can be passed on to some of the younger pilots in this thread. Great response on this subject. I have done several mountain training flights here in the past and have been told that it has been of great benefit to some of the junior pilots, and I will continue to do this.

A lot can be learned in a coffee shop by just asking questions and listening to what the experienced pilots have to say. You can gain knowledge and not have to dig out your wallet. (of course this is no replacement for a proper course)

Their are different ways to perform these types of flights, I did some training at a school in B.C. (no names) years ago and was told that I was doing it the wrong way. Maybe it wasn't their way but I am still here, flying in the mountains 32 years later, not to say that I have never scared myself. All information is good (sift out the Bull$hit however) Mother Nature always has a few tricks up her sleeve if she wants to make things tough for you, experienced or not.

 

As for the "customer pressure" that it seems that is one of the main topics in these discussions, I have a short one for you guys:

 

Had a tourist flight last summer- Nature photographers (clue #1 to possible issues- must get that perfect photo) to fly to a ridge top to photograph a lake below. Went to pick him and his assistant up with a 206L-4, took full fuel as he wanted to fly 1 hour after to sightsee. At the safety brief, 6 people show up- need to take the cook, helper, lodge owner, and his wife for a ride too.

After quick check, all within limits, away we go. Customer (heli rookie) wants to do the photos at the 7000 foot ridge first. Just say "NO" (nicely), we will do the scenic flight first and burn up 250 lbs of fuel. (this eliminates the 2 extra female passengers weight in fuel for the 1st landing) A little grumbling but after finding him a mountain goat or 2, all was well.

Go to land on the ridge and it is a 2000 foot cliff facing the 25-30 knot wind and the photographer wants to land on the edge, of course. Again say "NO" as this wouldn't be a good place to be. Behind the ridge was a mile of flat land (plateau) lots of grass, 1000 good landing sites.

Point the heli into wind and do a 1-2 mile approach, knowing perfectly well that you are not going to land where he wants anyhow (don't tell him as you are going to be busy and don't want someone hounding you as you are trying to land). Do the approach to any of the landing sites and end up just where it feels the best as it really doesn't matter- if you are 100 or 200 yards off your intended landing site, who cares, they will walk to the edge of the ridge anyhow. Help him pack his camera, maybe you can talk him into going to another lake while you are at it- more revenue! We walked to the ridge and they commented, "sure is windy, i'm glad we didn't land here"

I think you see what I am trying to get at here, happy ending for all, got the photos, you have forgotten about the trip within a week, made a few dollars, relaxing beer at the end of the day.

 

Had I tried to please the customer, 6 passengers, 7000 feet elevation, full fuel less 20 minutes or so, gusty winds, annoying photographer- I think we read about this in our PDM courses or accident reports. Then you wouldn't forget the flight within a week would you?

 

I know I ramble on but since I can't sit down and chat over a coffee with you guys, this will

have to do.

 

B.M.

 

 

[Elan Head]

Their are different ways to perform these types of flights, I did some training at a school in B.C. (no names) years ago and was told that I was doing it the wrong way. Maybe it wasn't their way but I am still here, flying in the mountains 32 years later, not to say that I have never scared myself. All information is good (sift out the Bull$hit however) Mother Nature always has a few tricks up her sleeve if she wants to make things tough for you, experienced or not.

 

Interestingly, when I did some mountain training in New Zealand last year, the very high-time pilot I flew with observed that he wouldn't disagree with anything I had been taught in Penticton — even though he taught different techniques himself. I think too many schools/instructors/pilots fall into the trap of thinking "that's wrong because it's not what I was taught." There are lots of ways to accomplish the same task... just no new ways to kill yourself!

[skullcap]

Couldn't agree more on the fact that the only rule in mountain flying is that there are no rules.....when hearing about Penticton from a certain pilot he was on about what he "heard" that they make you fly a certain approach(flat) and that was that. Upon instructing there that statement could not have been further from the truth. The other instructors were all ex Okanagan and I ex Associated. We all were on the same page when it came to doing what approach was necessary for the terrain and wind. We may not have agreed to do the same approach mind you but we tended to agree on the fact you need an open mind and to load the disc.

 

One of the hardest students(had a mountain course from another company and was relatively experienced) I had to work with insisted upon certain things: one of them was that you had to land into wind....so I took him to a dead end valley with upflowing air. His approach was into wind, verticalling down from 200 feet or so with 90% torque and only the 2 of us onboard. I showed him how you could stay to one side of the valley to have an option behind you to leave and do a relatively flat approach and torque was no higher than 70%(206B)....he still refused to do the approach....he did not stay with the company and made great competion to fly with....

 

"playing" doing downwind landings in an Astar.....would suggest that downwind landings in Astar are not dangerous at all unless the disc is unloaded and you don't really know what the wind is doing. Watch being downwind in low density snow unless you have lots of reference. Have done countless downwind landings in everything from 204 to lama and "my" rule is that when downwind there better be alot of things going for you that compensate for the downwind landing. That is why there are published critical wind azumith charts and limitations for crosswind/downwind landings for most aircraft so that the pilot can determine whether or not the intending landing spot is safe or not. Upflowing gentle breeze with no way to do an into wind landing due to terrain restrictions,,,no problem as long as there is controllability and both the main and tail rotor disc are loaded.

 

Many pilots are under the misconception that a downwind approach should be quicker than into wind....the closure rate to the spot should be very similar with either approach,,, the biggest thing noted is that the airspeed will fall off very quickly downwind but as long as the disc is loaded you will find out very quickly whether or not you have the power and controllability to carry on with the approach.

 

fire away

 

[skullcap]

Oh, should make a disclaimer,,,,I do not work at Canadian now nor do I represent the way they train now. They may or may not utilize the same methods now as then, and have the highest respect for their course still. My post was only to state how it was done when I worked there.

 

 

 

 

[Rotorwing]

Hi, I may as well through in my two bits worth, as for down wind landings in the mountians, the only time I ever got in trouble landing down wind was when I thought I was into wind. Down wind landinds are not the danger in the hills, not knowing where the wind is from will get you into far more trouble.

To qoute and old Okanagan/Canadian instructor at Penticton, "We teach folks to break ground and fly off into the wind, not break wind and fly off into the ground".

 

RW

[Zazu]

The way this topic was/is being addressed is commendable. A very easy quick, and VALUABLE educational tool. Especially for those of us who have a mountain course (a very good one in my opinion) yet rarely use it. It's a quick and easy reference which turn the "lights" on when I read it.

 

Zazu

[Black Mike]

 

 

Any way the Grumpy Old Fart comment is not meant to be derogatory. I would be grumpy if I had been sitting is a Bell seat all those hours too!

 

Mixmaster

 

Mixmaster,

 

I forgot to pass on, no offense taken with the comments- my wife calls me that all the time- especially when I haven't had any flights for a few weeks (and not enough snow for sledding). Maybe Bell will have comfy seats available as an option in the future, better start saving up.

 

B.M..

[twinstar_ca]

and of course, all of you remember that Mr. Tillotson did all in a piston!!!