Mountain Winds

[skullcap]

true Twinnie; he was a true pioneer and very intelligent. Had the pleasure of meeting him twice,,,very much like alot of the old school Okanagan folks,,,honorable and respectful.

 

On the course I took for mountain flying we were instructed on techniques similar to his as was done on Hiller 12E(which flew in mountains for first two years), I cannot find that manual as was very interesting, they had a few accident reports in the back which were so different than todays reports. Remember reading of one fella who had two accidents which were caused by him "freezing" at the controls, if I remember correctly.

 

It was very clear in the manual that one of the hardest obstacles a pilot new to the mountains to overcome was fear, I guess we'd call in anxiety now days and as my old friend Ev would say you need to be a bit anxious everyday to keep yourself sharp.

 

Tons of respect for those gentleman.

 

 

[NG Limited]

It was very clear in the manual that one of the hardest obstacles a pilot new to the mountains to overcome was fear, I guess we'd call in anxiety now days and as my old friend Ev would say you need to be a bit anxious everyday to keep yourself sharp.

 

Tons of respect for those gentleman.

 

Ev? As in Ev Cameron? If so, what a character! I always enjoyed training with Ev. Whether it was recurrent or a PPC, Ev was always entertaining and I learned a lot from those guys.

 

 

[skullcap]

Ev? As in Ev Cameron? If so, what a character! I always enjoyed training with Ev. Whether it was recurrent or a PPC, Ev was always entertaining and I learned a lot from those guys.

 

 

Yep,,,solid gold that man.

[mixmaster]

Wow a great thread so far, but I was thinking about something I said earlier on, and it raised another set of questions. It was about this time of year being great for meeting people as fire ships passed through to get to their various contracts.

 

My question is this, on cross country trips (well away from your normal operating area) when does wind and turbulence shut you down. I guess this is also in part to me hearing that Robinson will not let a low time pilot ferry new helicopters from Torrance (think that is a D.A. issue not wind and turbulence).

 

I am thinking more of mountainous terrain again, east of L.A. in Robinsons case, but also the Rockies and the Mountain ranges in Canada.

 

As I know this is a bit of a broad question I will try to narrow it down a bit. In the case of the mountains around Whistler B.C. (been there a couple of times to ski, so am vaguely aware of height and shape, plus it is in Canada so most on this forum may know the area), how does wind and turbulence affect flying?

 

Lets say winter, low pressure approaching so wind out of the south/south west, wind in the valleys 10-15 knots, ridge tops 15 gusting 25.

 

What is the best transit altitude, way high, 1000 to 1500 feet above ridges? Down in the Valleys at 500 Agl and mountain passes? Punch through perpendicular to the ridge or at an angle?

 

How far downwind from a ridge does the worst turbulence extend? If you get in to bad turbulence what do you do? Turn around, Climb above it, Descend?

 

Do Lenticular clouds help you decide not to go anywhere or is that indicative of laminar winds?

 

Would wind shear be unsafe? For a 206L, Astar, R44, 212?

 

What if winds are higher 25 gusting 45 on the ridges?

 

What about lower winds, 10-15 on the Ridges?

 

Best penetration air speed for 206L, 407, astar, R44, Hu369? Is being heavy (full fuel) better that being lighter?

 

In this scenario I am not talking about landing, just transiting the mountains to get to the other side.

 

I know that this is a lot of questions, but I am interested to know more for if I ever get a call to ferry a ship cross country, and it seems like a ton of really knowledgeable pilots are on this forum.

 

Thanks

 

Mixmaster

 

[happyfeet]

IMHO, a mountain course from reputable company like VIH or CH out of Penticton, in a turbine machine will do nothing but improve ones flying skills ,even when not in the mountains. Power mgmt becomes a real eye opener. Did mine up in the late 90's. The fear factor of towing in on steep mountains, having an out, and the 8 maneouver, countour crawls etc. It's also a valuable tool to help expand the knowledge of weather. It was a great learning experience. Highly reccomended.

 

HF

 

 

[newfieboy]

IMHO, a mountain course from reputable company like VIH or CH out of Penticton, in a turbine machine will do nothing but improve ones flying skills ,even when not in the mountains. Power mgmt becomes a real eye opener. Did mine up in the late 90's. The fear factor of towing in on steep mountains, having an out, and the 8 maneouver, countour crawls etc. It's also a valuable tool to help expand the knowledge of weather. It was a great learning experience. Highly reccomended.

 

HF

 

 

Hear, Hear Happyfeet, I totally agree, siesmic on the Jebel in Oman will certainally make you apreciate an approved course from said companies, power becoming a real factor, yep ya said it one.

[Elan Head]

Hi Mixmaster,

 

I'll touch on some of your questions and hopefully some of those really knowledgeable pilots will jump in!

 

Generally speaking, I think most people would agree that simply flying a helicopter over/through mountains is a lot simpler than figuring out how to land in them. Give yourself a comfortable safety margin (say, a few hundred feet) when you're crossing ridgelines, and you're probably as safe as you can be over any terrain with an inherent shortage of forced landing areas. That said, if you DO have to land, you don't want to find yourself a few thousand feet above your OGE hover ceiling. I've ferried a lightly loaded 412 across the Rocky Mountains no problem; I wouldn't have chosen the same route in an R22! So common sense plays a big role in the route you select and whether you stay lower, or whether you just cruise over the top of a mountain range. So does whether you're interested in the scenic route: in a turbine aircraft, you'll get great efficiencies from cruising at a very high altitude, but you'll miss out on the scenery!

 

I would venture to say that HOW wind is flowing across a mountain range can be as important as how strong it is. You'll encounter the greatest turbulence (and possibly lenticular clouds and mountain waves) when the wind is blowing perpendicular to a mountain range. I don't think 25 knots across a ridgeline is going to be a big deal for any transiting helicopter (though if you're uncomfortable in turbulence, it could be a big deal for the pilot!). Forty-five knots could be a different story.

 

I think the general rule for turbulence is to 1) not panic, and 2) slow to an airspeed that's somewhat above the bottom of the power curve — the idea being that you can accept fluctuations in airspeed without exceeding Vne or falling on the backside of the power curve. Sometimes climbing will get you out of it; sometimes it won't.

 

Hope you get a cool ferry flight in the near future — it's the best way to see any country!

 

Cheers,

 

Elan

[Over-Talk]

Mixmaster, with respect.....you are asking too many quantified questions.

Answers to all those numbers you are quoting can't really be provided.

 

As many of the previous contributors have said.....it is often a comfort level that will determine your actions on a particular day. This will vary depending on the pilot's experience level, type of aircraft, mission, location, altitude etc etc etc.

 

The seat-of-the-pants flying and on-the-spot decision making is what separates helicopter flight from so many other sectors of the aviation industry, and that's what is so enjoyable for most of us.

On many days, only one number matters.....how high is the pucker-factor ?????

 

As mentioned above, flying through the mountains requires a lot less training than landing there.

But flying through them will give you the experience you need to start learning about landing in them.

So get out there.

 

Fear was also touched on above.

Don't be afraid....it will scare your chief pilot, your passengers, your wife, and worst of all, yourself.

But a slight sense of fear of what could go wrong should always keep you ahead of the safety curve.

 

You obviously have a safe head on your shoulders, so get out there and learn some stuff.

Take along a big smile, a camera, a little fear, and remember how to do a 180 degree turn.

 

Enjoy.

 

 

 

[R22Captain]

great thread :up: :punk:

[happyfeet]

Mixmaster, with respect.....you are asking too many quantified questions.

Answers to all those numbers you are quoting can't really be provided.

 

As many of the previous contributors have said.....it is often a comfort level that will determine your actions on a particular day. This will vary depending on the pilot's experience level, type of aircraft, mission, location, altitude etc etc etc.

 

The seat-of-the-pants flying and on-the-spot decision making is what separates helicopter flight from so many other sectors of the aviation industry, and that's what is so enjoyable for most of us.

On many days, only one number matters.....how high is the pucker-factor ?????

 

As mentioned above, flying through the mountains requires a lot less training than landing there.

But flying through them will give you the experience you need to start learning about landing in them.

So get out there.

 

Fear was also touched on above.

Don't be afraid....it will scare your chief pilot, your passengers, your wife, and worst of all, yourself.

But a slight sense of fear of what could go wrong should always keep you ahead of the safety curve.

 

You obviously have a safe head on your shoulders, so get out there and learn some stuff.

Take along a big smile, a camera, a little fear, and remember how to do a 180 degree turn.

 

Enjoy.

 

 

Totally agree! Mixmaster too many quantitative questions.!! By and large the pucker factor is the largest hurdle to overcome.+ knowledge of weather and technique.It takes many years of mountain flying to start to relax. Then when you think you have it beat, something comes along that you haven't seen before and startles the living bejesus out af ya. Flying in mountains humbles even the most experienced mountain fellas.

 

Best thing to do would be to take a mountain course. Good place to start!

 

Good luck!