What Would You Do…

[Jet B]

I fly turnkey seismic all the time, and I have NEVER fudged the numbers to make the production work out... I do my job to the best of my abilities with Safety being my first concern, production comes second. I have never had an unhappy client and my production numbers always work out fine if the job was bid correctly. Bags per hour has more to do with how the job is co-ordinated than how the pilot flies unless he is completely green at production long line work. And yes on certain jobs, depending on the conditions and details, a hu500 and a B2 astar could have very similar cost per channel with a skilled driver on the stick. The 500 however would fly twice as many hours to do the same job, when both aircraft pay the pilot the same hourly rate, which one would you rather fly?

[skullcap]

JB;

 

So you have never heard of this problem and am blowing smoke? I have been on both ends of the stick so to speak and likewise have not fudged any books, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is and you know it. Try to take the I out out what am saying and look around to what others are doing. I KNOW pilots whom have been told that they MUST have the numbers in the contract and that is all there is to it. So are they not experienced, some are and some weren't, does it make a difference to not record time in a logbook because you can't longline as fast as the next guy?

 

Bidding so many holes per hour on is ok too, as long as you can do the numbers, what if the winds are higher than normal or hotter than anticipated and can't do the numbers and you get skidded never to return the that customer. Small industry to be bballed in and because of a guarentee made by someone in an office. It happened and will happen again, maybe to you. Drill companies are taking advantage of the skilled drivers and the lame management of these companies and are able to pick and choose who they want and heaven help a new guy who has a bad tour, ie wind and weather against him. Holes per hour is just more ammo for them to be able to say "No this guy is OUT". You can argue that they may get rid of the pilot anyway as they can tell when production is off but if the pilot is working hard and being diplomatic have never seen them skid a pilot but as mentioned, holes per hour is their way out and to a spagetti backboned manager works like a charm.

 

What about the company that issued a memo to the point of whoever over bill the most will get bonuses, the pilot who won almost doubled his flight time with billed time, and we're not talking unused mins here or contact hours. That ok?

 

As with 90% of what goes on in this business everyone is not a bad guy but it only takes a few bad apples(in this case companies as well) to ruin the bunch.

 

sc

[Frequent Flyer]

Good call Skullcap,

Sounds like you know your stuff. Yes there are companies out there that promote overbilling to make up for under bidding. From a management standpoint it is rampant. Especially in Alberta. Pilots are encouraged to beef up thier crew moves and specials in order to cover thier short comings on the bags. Honest companies like yours suffer because you cant match a 40% difference in the bid. No wonder certain people have such a strong hold on the industry when on paper they look like a genius. Its dishonest, its wrong, its unproffesional but unfortunatly it business. Im not to sure about a solution. Maybe to name names. Im sure all those in the siesmic game already know who the culprits are. So how do you make it better. Anyone???

[Jet B]

I'm sure that number fudging happens all the time, I was just saying that I don't do it. I can only speak for myself. I agree completely that it would suck to roll onto a job where you have to compete with the last guys imagination and creative penwork. As for the overbilling, anyone who has the conscience to bill twice what they actually fly, has missed their true calling... He should have been a lawyer or a banker. :down: If I wasn't so addicted to flying, I would just give up on this industry and go work at Tim Horton's... Mmmmmmm, coffee and donuts.

[Jet B]

Let me just clarify this though, I do bill a .1 for starts so if I only flew an hour all day and had to start the **** thing 10 times, I guess I would bill twice what I flew. (2h. flight time 1h. airtime) But man my thumb would be sore from all those starts...

[VERTICAL REF]

First off, it is "seismic".

 

Secondly, there are many reputable Alberta seismic companies that have been around longer than most of us have had licenses'.

 

Thirdly, the "new" Alberta companies are all from back EAST!

[skullcap]

Some companies are upfront that each flight will be billed as a minimum of .2, as long as they publish it as so and the customer is informed then so be it. As far as adding a .1 per start, do you then charge 4.4 hours for 4 hours of flying and 4 starts? If so dude, you are costing the customer .4 hours extra at 1500 per hour is 450 dollars of flying they aren't getting this is how a fella could follow a B2 with a B model, how so? I fly the B model and do the extra flying it takes to compete the job and bill accordingly, you bill the extra non flown hours and voila the dollars are the same. But what probably is happening is that your company is able to reduce their rate by 150 per hour and still make the 1500 per hour, to get the job from me and now do you see my point yet? It becomes a dogs breakfest, there should not be any question as to how a helicopter is billed on most jobs. Extenuating circumstances such as working in the arctic and not shutting down in the field as a safety margine is an exampe, it is not fair that the customer wants the aircraft to be running all the time and not be charged for it, thus it is written in the contract that running time is to be billed. It is wrong to bill extra unless there is a paper trail to follow.

 

phew

 

sc

[skullcap]

Ya VR it is "seismic" but have done a ton of production ll work and not had these issues, why should siesmic have their own rules? soon it will be that we will be asked to provide the bags and crews as well for the same price, they don't want to pay extra now for the nav equipment and bagrunners. No wonder some people have got out of it, the only way stay ahead is to be a better crook it seems.

 

Maybe TC should park their red 206 and send the others folks(CTA) into the offices and begin snooping around that way. Most operators are running a good show as far as equipment and gear, this is not the big issue, it is the billing and logbook fraud.

sc

[Jet B]

Ya dude, I do bill a .1 per start and yes it is in the company tarriff for any customer to see. I would be surprised if most companies out there didn't charge something for start cycles.

[Jet A]

Why not go and ask a few pilots who don't mind going along with companies who bid turnkey seismic and tell the pilots that they move "x number of bags" per hour and when the pilot can't they tell em to fudge the books. Get some of their names put some customers names up of the block and open a few cans of worms? Everyone knows about what is going on, so fill in some forms and send them in to tc. Get these as2h99es off the street and into the courtrooms where they belong. You'd think that with all this ranting and whining that may the truth should be out, get this "associations" to get after their own people for this criminal actions going on a daily basis.

I guess i am one of these people you are refering to as a criminal or "as2H99es" as you would say scullcap as i fly turnkey seismic for a living. You are painting all of us as some pretty lowly people. Are you saying that all of us are fudging the books and over billing the customer?Is it maybe that you couldn't cut the cake as a production pilot and you want to bad mouth the rest that could?