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HEPAC Membership

Who Should Be Allowed To Join HEPAC  

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Does this mean that "companies" are allowed to become associate members?


Heli Ops;


Don't go off all upset. I didn't mention your name or anyone else's name or mag did I? I was stating an opinion, one which has nothing to gain/lose or representative of anything other than by being a potential member(pilot/Canadian) in an Canadian Pilot's association. If you don't agree with mine, this is what I expected, but since you started the poll thought you may be interested in feedback. Do you think that there would not be any disadvantages brought to the associations because of companies joining an association. If so what can/could be done to prevent them, maybe there are methods that would allow "companies" to join with ZERO voice, if so then great, but then what would be the advantage of the "company" joining the association. Surely there are better tax write offs. As for being a member individually then it seems that everyone is all for it, me too as long as you are working in Canada or for a Canadian company.


I think everyone appreciates your help and advice and doubt if it would be turned away even if you were not an associate member.


There are many financial and marketing benifits for allowing "associate" members and everyone can see them but that is not what concerns me, the disadvantages that come to my mind that have me concerned. Would you not be worried that the companies that advertise in your magazine may not be too happy that you are a member of an association that wants to change how they do business?


Some one mentioned that we should not worry about what the association could do for us but what we could do for the association, nice but that is only half of what people should be thinking. This association is starting late in life and we need to ensure that it is done right and maintained to the highest standards. In other words the association works for the people who it has allegiance to and the people must reciprocate, but the action/reaction between the two must be maintained with the thought process that the association must not be compromised by any form or corruption however real it is or not.


In closing, since you are not based in Canada and don't think you are Canadian why would you want to join an association for p's & e's here?





I have not one concern that this association would work and its benefits once going, but it's kind of like a locomotive in an round house, no matter how good that engine is, it won't matter if it is put on the wrong track.


BM-if you don't like this form of info sharing, well that's just too bad, it doesn't take 200 bucks to have guts.

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Skullcap - I will respond where I can. Yes I am not based in Canada, actually live on the waterfront here in Auckland, New Zealand, about as far away as you can get. Why would I want to help the Canadian industry, very simple. My magazine covers the helicopter industry worldwide, I get to visit and meet people from all areas of the industry and I will state for the record that some of the best times I have had have been in Canada. Going heli logging with Black Tusk was an eye opening experience for me and after spending some time chatting with the guys there, and elsewhere, I came to realise that there was no association as such that would help them for any of their causes.


He talked about HAC and what a waste of time that is unless you are an owner or an operator and even then everyone I spoke to didnt really have a decent word to say about it. When I posed the idea about everyone getting together and forming an association the majority said they the industry was so fragmented in Canada, because of the vast distances etc, that they doubted anyone could bring them all together.


Being a member of an association is very similar to what we do with the magazine. We bring people together through a medium, in this case the magazine. We disseminate information that can help, assist or change the way people do buisness. My opinion is an association is the same way, from helping a low time student find ways into their first paying job to giving an engineer some new way of fixing his main rotor transmission. When the idea of an association was first bought up I thought it was great, the exchange of ideas was good to see, BUT, and no offence to Blackmac here as he has taken the bull by the horns and got it up and running, the back and forth insults and personal attacks have caused HEPAC more harm than good. I have seen the same sort of Shite happen in Australia with their association and also here in NZ. A lot of the countries I have visited they dont have a shits show in **** of ever getting a group of people together to help better their conditions, terms of employment or just to have a major gathering and shoot the ####.


You all have the chance here to start something that will leave a legacy for generations of pilots to come. It may not be the be all and end all of associations but its a good start but the B/S needs to stop now and every effort made to increase the momentum. Again with no offence intended to Blackmac I dont think he is the right person to try and provide feedback to those asking questions. You need someone like Biggles or whoever the other director is to answer the queries without any sort of antagonistic comment, that will encourage the person to part with their membership fee, not go away feeling like he has just been trodden all over. Blackmac you are to be commended for your initiative in getting the association going and in 100 years time you can be assured that every new member will know that it was Don that got the ball rolling. :up:


My goal, through the magazine is to try and help the industry and if that involves joining HEPAC as an associate or corporate member so that my $200 or whatever it will helps the association move forward then it is money well spent. if I can put an advertisement in the magazine for a membership drive then great, but its all about spreading the word and bringing people together. **** I sound like a bible basher :shock:


Now onto the subject about companies as members. Its very very easy, they join but dont have voting rights. When I was working with the Heli Assn of Australia some years ago I bought in 18 corporate members who each paid around $1000 AUD, and all they got out of it was that they were proud sponsors of the HAA and members would support them whenever they could. There is no reason you couldnt do the same there. Look at the companies in your backyard, Bell Helicopter, ACRO, Pratt & Whitney, Eurocopter, HSI, plus many many more. Then there are all local companies such as hospitals or providers of services who could also be targeted. The list is endless and you would be surprised, I doubt any of them would be concerned that they dont have voting rights. I might even have the old letter I used to get the Aussie ones to join that you could use. There are a lot of companies out there that would be proud to support the helicopter industry. HEPAC is a good cause. In my opinion you would have the following catergories of membership:


Professional Member (Pilots) Voting Rights

Professional Member (Engineer) Voting Rights

Student Member (Pilot) Voting Rights

Student Member (Apprentice Engineer) Voting Rights

Associate Member (Individual) No Voting Rights

Affiliate Member - No Voting Rights

Corporate Member - No Voting Rights


This way you can welcome all areas of the industry and non industry participation. Remember you might have companies like Agusta in the US and Italy that see Canada as a good prospect for sales and what better way to show the industry that you support their industry by being a corporate member.


Now companies, this is also relatively easy. I will use Alpine Helicopters as an example. Alpine might think that the goals and programs run by HEPAC are benefitting them greatly because of increased productivitiy, increased safety etc, so therefore they decide to come onboard the association as a corporate member as it shows they are supporting the HEPAC ideals. They dont get voting rights and cant change the way HEPAC does business but they can show that they are supporting those that make their business what it is, the pilots and engineers.


Anyway thats just some of my feedback. Take it for what its worth. There are a lot of people around the world that have connections to the Canadian industry and would love to support you, dont exclude them.


Heli Ops

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You make it sound as though we would be snubbing our noses, not true just trying to be true to the name.


There is a multitude of benefits, of which you have highlighted, thank you for the kind words of our industry and country. Be great if all those folks would start sending money and all, I must be simple minded to think "companies" wouldn't be getting there money's worth. But hey, we spent anywhere from 1.2 - 12 million cnd for the opportunity to put "Canada" on J Villinueave's racing uniform so why not send some moola to HEPAC? Always get noivous when power and money start entering into decision making of something that is supposed to support individuals(you know the u word) but have been accused of being naive once.


I guess that is what the directors and members have to weigh.


Your example of Alpine mentioned that there would be an increase in productivity, how so? Because they would pay higher saleries, or have to hire more people to cover the extra time off that the association won for the employees? Because the added benefits they would be paying to cover employees needs. You'd think with all that whistling going on there that folks are already pretty he ho happy now.




Hmmm, not so sure that many companies would be jumping to support it, maybe, but in my somewhat darkened opinion they'd be more inclined to plant one of maggies moles within to destroy the evil doing association. Maybe Mags can suppy hepac with the tried and true mole detector(a spin off the donut buddy me thinks). He could smuggle it in under his t shirt, ha!




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Skullcap - Not trying to say you are not staying true to the name, just saying that as long as the basis of the association, this being the Pilots and Engineers, are Canadian based then why not open the other memberships, these being the non voting ones, to all that want to support the association.


With regards to those wanting to spend money to support the association, there is only one way to find out, and thats to ask. You dont get if you dont ask do you.


The point of the Alpine post was in reference to maybe HEPAC runs a safety course for the industry as part of what they do. Say for example a wire strike prevention course. Well maybe Alpine had problems over the past years with wire strikes, well after the course pilots are more aware of working in the wire environment and Alpine think thats great. See my point. This is only one example and probably a bad one but hoepfully you get the gist. Not everything that an association does is to piss the operator off, if they are show how it benefits them then in most cases they will support it.


Everything depends on the delivery of the message.


Heli Ops

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HeliOPs, SkullCap: You both bring up good points and I will not comment on either one as in previous posts at the begining of this venture I so stated the following:


1. I wanted to work with HAC and the industry as a whole and not be confrontational on any issue brought up by the membership. How soon we forget.


2. If HAC members wanted to support us in an endeavour to better the industry, they are more than welcome as associate members with no voting rights.


3. Should they (companies) wish show there support as sponsors, there yearly contribution will be locked in for the year with no refund.


4. Don't forget the companies need us, as we need them.


5. HRDC will not support us, neither will ATAC.


6. I have asked Alpine, Great Slave and HAC for some feedback. I only received a reply from Alpine that they were not interested.


7. HEPAC has been getting some good comments from a few individuals, keep it up, become members and from there decide what the association will do.


Cheers Don


IMHO: We accept anybody that wants to become an associate member, they have no say in how the association is run.

We have to work with the operators and it would be much easier to talk to them.

Unless of course you want to talk to yourself. They have places for people like you.

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Blackmac - I think you will find that the operators such as Alpine, Great Slave etc will sit back and watch and see what HEPAC does and how it develops before making any ideas of support. We ran into the same thing in Australia. A few operators were dead against it in the beginning but then when the association was moving ahead and they could see the benefits they jumped on the bandwagon.


Until you define the actual direction of the association, what they are going to do to help the industry and what benefits people will get from it, memberships will be slow, both individual and corporate. Thats no reflection of you or the team, its just a fact, people want to see some action before making some sort of commitment.


I have to admit your latest post was a lot more "user friendly" than all the other ones I have seen. There is an old saying here that you attract more with honey than you do with vinegar. Believe me I have learnt from my own personal experiences. Keep going on this vein and you will get more members than you know what to do with.


As a boost to help you get going how about designing up a quarter page ad and we will put it in the next issue of Heli Ops for you at no cost, and I challenge Mike at Vertical to do the same. Why not make a good impact to get the ball rollinng.


Heli Ops

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  • 1 year later...

Gentlemen......now this, is going in the right direction. Excellent points given, and just as important, points well taken. This is a "must" if HEPAC is going to get off the ground (couldn't resist). As the poll is indicating, open to all, is most encouraging, I feel it is looking outside the box. Of course it will bring some problems....but this will take time for HEPAC to sort out it's teething problems that will arise. Now is the time for us to "put up" or "shut-up". I have my membership dues ready, where do I send them?

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