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Sling Loads And Passengers

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GWK, in a round about way i was trying to suggest if you had room for pax in the side facing seat, could the cargo have been put aft in the cabin to allow a forward seat available? i do agree on following rules concerning pax at emerg exits. i have reorganised the cabin to accomodate the pax(without breaking any rules), since they are the ones paying.



I can not for the life of me think how we could have rearranged things to allow a pax in a forward seat, and a clear, unobstructed path to exits on both sides.

Remember, back then we did not have a big honkin ski basket on the side in the summer, so all our gear was carried internal.

We would normally remove the 4 man, load all our gear, restrain with a custom net made especially for that purpose, and put the 4 man in last and herc strap it down. The side facing areas were used for personal gear on one side and boxes of spares on the other. The tail was refueling gear, electric and honda pump.

We never had mtn bikes, windsurfers, or motorbikes with us, and we never had foam or even a long line back then, yet we were always within 2 feet of the ceiling.


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As long as it's in your ops. manual and there is a pilot at the controls then it's not a problem. Also the guy/gal fueling must be qualified.


Actually the only CARs that refers to refuelling with the engines running is :

"Fuelling with Engines Running

602.09 No person operating an aircraft shall permit the fuelling of the aircraft while an engine used for the propulsion of the aircraft is running and passengers are on board the aircraft or are embarking or disembarking, unless subsection 704.33(4) or 705.40(3), as applicable, is complied with."

Obviously this only deals with passengers on board while fuelling; there is no regualtion in the CARS that says you can't hot refuel (in the bush or at an airport)

As far as having a pilot at the controls:

Starting and Ground Running of Aircraft Engines

602.10 (1) No person shall start an engine of an aircraft unless

(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft;

(B) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving; or

© in the case of a seaplane, the aircraft is in a location from which any movement of the aircraft will not endanger persons or property.

(2) No person shall leave an engine of an aircraft running unless

(a) a pilot's seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft; or

(B) where no persons are on board the aircraft,

(i) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving, and

(ii) the aircraft is not left unattended.

Although this is rather vague and open to interpretation, at our company we interpret this as follows (and during many conversations with Transport Canada they don't have issue with this interpretation.)

• As per 602.10(2) “(i) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving” can be interpreted as tightening the frictions on both the cyclic and the collective; however pilots shall use good judgment, and assess each situation individually. Pilots should remain in the seat and at the controls on excessively windy days or if other aircraft are landing in the immediate vicinity.

• As per 602.10(2) “(ii) the aircraft is not left unattended”: pilots should remain within close enough proximity to take the controls in the event the aircraft began to move. NEVER leave the aircraft unattended.

• Passengers should never be onboard the aircraft unless the pilot’s seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft

• Passengers should never be onboard the aircraft while fuelling


It's also worth noting that just because you are working at an airport doesn't mean you will have less time constraints and cycles than if you were in the bush. In some cases at this time of year remote communities in the north use helicopters for short flights of 3 minutes or less (like accross a river). In this situation shutting down to refuel is not always ideal. There is also something to be said about having more emergency resources at an airport than if something were to happen while hot refuelling in the bush.



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I am pretty sure it does. I had to pull a few out and of course they are glued in so well they broke, just to meet the requirements of the stc. Of course, it might be hard to see the seal in the pic, that area is pretty dark. There should be a placard in each corner though.

As for pax in the medium, I have turned the 4 man seat to face forward, that way the seat holds stuff behind it in addition to the net. The pax still has access out through the front doors.

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I've flown both F/W and R/W through the days of ANO's and Air Regs, up until most recently and I still remember and operate with the same two rules that were passed-on to me by my aviation family when I first ventured forth into this wonderful world of aviation:


1) Doesn't feel right, just uncomfortable with it or a 'little voice' in the back of your head is offering you it's opinion.............THEN DON'T DO IT! IF still in doubt or wondering what to do because perhaps the house mortgage or the pride is getting in the way, refer to Rule #2,


2) Think very hard as to what you will say in answer to a particular question always asked in a Court of Discovery, should you do this thing anyway and it turns out bad someday with a loss of life and/or injuries............."Mr./Ms X, would you please share with this Courtroom your justification for making the decision you did"........and it better be one humdinger of an answer or your a*s is grass and guess who'll be the lawnmower.


The above two rules haven't kept me perfect over 48 years of F/W and later R/W, but they've kept me alive for my grand kids and kept my butt out of Courts of Discovery and being asked that question.

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Let's face it. The rules that we have to obide by come into being because of lawyers and insurance companies who rule the business world and it's all about 'CYA'. Lawsuits awarded in this day and age are astronomical and even if you win your defense, the cost of a law team can reach $1,500 - $2000/hr.


The vast majority of those in aviation know that at least 90% of the rules are in place because of the stupid, inane actions of some pilots, some place within the jurisdiction of those rules........and many of us have seen where, when and with who these rules had their germination. Left alone and to their own druthers, the vast majority of pilots can fly for eons and do so safely because they use their brains, don't wish to die and want to be known as 'Pros'.


Breaking rules? Sometimes rules are broken by pilots, engineers and companies with the full knowledge of their regional MoT Inspectors. It's what I call "the wink, wink, nudge nudge rule". Example: When bubble windows for longlining first arrived on the scene they were NOT approved by MoT for ANY a/c, but the '04's/05's got them first and that was mainly because they weren't available for any other a/c at that time. Not for months, but for years, they were illegal. Everybody knew it and just kept ordering and installing them in their Mediums. MoT inspections came and went with the comment that "you realize that those windows aren't approved, don't you?" and with the reply "Really, well guess we'll have to remove the bloody things then". Western companies were the biggest lawbreakers at that time and bubble windows didn't show-up in the east until years later. Longlining in the east meant the pilot in the right seat and perhaps the engineer in the left giving the pilot directions. I could go on and introduce a few from the F/W world also, but my point has been made.


Barring any catastrophic thing happening to your a/c in flight, the vast majority of you will live long, accumulate much experience in aviation and be a credit to the industry. They could take CARS and throw it into the ocean because you use your brains and experience to get you safely through each day and home to your loved ones at the end of the tour.

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