Vortex Ring State Versus Settling With Power.

[cap]

Twinstar ----------I don't think you 'want to go there' with that comment any further Twinny. I've trained and worked both sides of the 49th and can 'pick both apart' concerning their....shall we say 'training discrepencies'.........in certain parts of their training syllabi. So I'd resist 'huffing and puffing' about Canadian training standards too much .

 

 

[Elan Head]

i remember when that vid came out, BS... was very graphic as to the results...

 

to me, this whole topic just shows the difference between our 2 countries as to training... whats most important to me is that we are aware of both conditions and recognize how to get out of them!!

 

Hmm, to me, this topic shows how hung up people get on language! As Cap noted, each country seems to have its particular "training discrepancies." Although pilots in the U.S. call vortex ring state "settling with power," most of them got a lot of training in entering and recovering from the condition. Does that make a difference in accident rates? I dunno... would be interesting to find out!

[twinstar_ca]

was merely an observation as i'm well aware we both have our helmet fires as far as anything training wise goes!!

[Over-Talk]

This is not just a matter of semantics......

 

If you don't "get hung up on language" and continue to think these two things are the same.....

you will soon fall out of the sky and have a tree shoved up your helicopter's belly.

 

One is "settling with a little bit of power applied",

the other is "settling with lots of power applied".

 

One will happen with an empty water bucket, as you descend into the dip-site,

the other will happen with a full water bucket as you prepare for a drop.

 

Though the recovery is identical, i.e. push forward on the cyclic,

the mode of flight when you enter each state is quite different.

 

With 'prevention being better than recovery', I strongly suggest pilots learn/remember the different causes between the two.

Call them what you like, but you must remember that they are not the same thing.

[Elan Head]

With 'prevention being better than recovery', I strongly suggest pilots learn/remember the different causes between the two.

Call them what you like, but you must remember that they are not the same thing.

 

Absolutely! But I think this is a case of people "calling them what they like." Even though we use "vortex ring state" and "settling with power" interchangeably in the States, we mean "vortex ring state," and treat what the rest of the world calls "settling with power" as a separate phenomenon. Conversations only get confusing when you start crossing borders!

[dimit]

What do the Yanks call the thing we Canucks call "settling with power"?

 

Thanks,

 

Dick

[Elan Head]

What do the Yanks call the thing we Canucks call "settling with power"?

 

"Oh s**t!"

 

No, seriously, I think it's like one of those two-syllable Indian words that translates to "quiet place by bend in river where deer graze under cloudy sky" — we don't have a good term for it (that I know of) so we call it something like "a rate of descent for which you have insufficient power to prevent a hard landing."

 

Cheers,

 

Elan

[cap]

My initial and ab initio training for R/W was done with the US Army (circa '65). "Settling with power' was just the same as up here in the 'Great White North' at that time and so on and so forth with the rest. 'Blade tip stall' was extensively taught also. Mention only was made of it during my conversion training once I arrived back in Canada. Other than that, most Canadian pilots wouldn't have a clue what it is or how to get out of that flight envelope either. The Huey Tuck' was also extensively taught when one converted to the UH's, but in my experience since then I can say that I'd be lucky if I could count 10 Canadian Medium pilots who knew what I meant if I happened to use it in a converation regarding something else. Semantics perhaps? Not when you explain same and they state that they understand the explanation fully, but it's the first time they had heard of it......and from pilots with as much as 5000-6000 hrs Medium experience. Then again, those that fly 'properly' never encounter it, but they should know of it anyway so they can recognize the danger their a/c in in when it is parked next to some "Joe Dynamic' who does it on take-off over or near their a/c. Keeps the engineer from reaching for his 18" long 'atitude adjuster' anyway :shock:

 

Twinnie...........apologies weren't expected and I was just having some fun at your expense, so 'stand easy' bud.

 

Over Talk......of course you are correct and I'll always support that position. My basic position is that you may not know the $52.00 word for the position you are in or are getting into, but you **** well know what it is, the mistake you made and how to get out of it. If you're really using the 'gray matter', then you don't get into that flight position in the first place, but sometimes we all have a momentary 'brain cramp'and knowledge, experience and speedy reactions save the day. If not, you get skewered by that tree you mentioned.....unless you're in the Arctic Islands

 

Elan Head --------you are correct also, but many 'moons' ago' I almost failed a F/W IFR ride because of the differences between the way 'Holding Patterns' were done Stateside and the way they were done this side of the border. The only thing that saved me was remembering that my mother, the American-trained pilot and my civilian IP, had 'beat into my head' the blatant and subtle differences between both country's aviation 'do's and don't's'.

[deuce bigalow]

Hmm, to me, this topic shows how hung up people get on language! As Cap noted, each country seems to have its particular "training discrepancies." Although pilots in the U.S. call vortex ring state "settling with power," most of them got a lot of training in entering and recovering from the condition. Does that make a difference in accident rates? I dunno... would be interesting to find out!

 

When one finds oneself hip deep in a swamp being gnawed on by something long,grey and reptilian it matters not so much whether to call it a Gator or a Croc as it does to get the h+ll out of the water by whatever means necessary.

 

[bs205]

Cap, could you please explain the Huey tuck.