How Close Is Too Close?

[shaggy]

good afternoon, all. i just finished an artical in Heli-ops about flame-outs during forest fire operations describing the fire triangle and how superheated air and smoke affect the operation of turbines. i have done some forestry work but most of it has been IA (with not much action) and flying the fire boss etc., not an awful lot of bucketing. my question as you have probably figured is how close can one safely get to the fire and smoke (without loosing reference of course) to avoid starving the engine of air with either superheated air or smoke. the other issue i was curious about is how do the elevated temperatures in close proximity to the fire itself affect the materials and components that make up our wonderful machines? do we even spend enough time that close to the fire line for the temperatures to really soak in and do any damage before having to go back for another load? any constructive comments would be greatly appreciated as we all know what time of year it is.

[skullcap]

Who the **** knows how close is too close. One thing I never do is go through any smoke going up from a descent size flame. As heat rises, the most intense heat will be directly above the flame, thus I try to approach, drop from the sides droping while in the turn away, in most small helicopters you are wasting time and money bucketing on any size flame that would be putting out the internal donkey fire. Work the flanks and let others get in close to the big heat if they want, is better left for large stuff(mother nature or mars bombers) to put out.

 

If you have your door off helps to judge if too close if doing recon or such, just remember to put the flame on the door off side.

 

sc

[VERTICAL REF]

shaggy,

 

If you can breath the turbine can breath, no problem. As a pilot and an engineer I see it physically impossible for smoke to flame out an engine. Cause elevated N1, Ng and EGT, TOT, ITT, MGT most definatley!

 

Some individuals have melted chin bubbles and blistered paint - just one more reason to be using a longline.

[skullcap]

VR;

 

I know you have this looong line obsession, will try not to dwell on lonnnnnngg, ha.

 

But the only melted parts I have seen are ones that were flying to close to the flame without worring about the load ie; driptorching. Being at the right height above the flame is the kicker as you know from being the engineer type that the hotest part of a flame when welding is above the flame a bit so being lower while beside the flame is sometimes safer than higher and more over the flame, so don't be lulled into thinking that higher is safe, oh by the way, go flames go.

 

 

on a short long line;

 

sc

 

or is it a long short line

[recirqe]

Shaggy

I don't fly though anything I can't see through . When you start to feel the heat on your arm or face through the window that is close enough ,Don't get any closer .

[Puddle Jumper]

Although I have little time working with helicopters on fires I have worked spotting them via fixed wing. Last year there was a small fire beside a railroad track. Come to think about it 204 B driver dropped crews off on the tracks at that fire. Anyway, due to me and my pilot wanting to be dead accurate on the location of the fire we decided to fly over it using the GPS to back up our location. Big Mistake! We were about 300 feet above the center of the fire and had one heck of a bumpy ride. Although the fire was small about .5 ha's it still was enough to make me and my pilot come to the conclusion that we should avoid flying directly over the fire. Lesson learned.

[VERTICAL REF]

Skully,

 

You did'nt go on too loooonnngg at all.

 

You are exactly correct about the flame. Wise from the plumbing and welding I see.

 

The drip torch is probably the BEST example of what should be on a longline as far as I am concerned. Some will disagree, but don't knock it until you try it!

[skullcap]

Crikey VR, you've gone loopy, maybe from being too high on that looonngline. A driptorch on a longline? Really?

sc

[VERTICAL REF]

Skully,

 

Why would you not want a torch on a longline! You would be amazed at the tricks and technics you can do with it compared to being limited on the bellie! Much, much safer to fill and service and impossible to burn down or scorch up ye old helicopter! Just something about landing in the middle of a pile of surefire and jet b...makes me pucker!

 

The only thing I do not put on a line is the spray booms, hard to keep them flying straight!

[407 Driver]

I've never tried torching on a line V-Ref, but it sounds like it may have it's merits. This "new-age logging practice of leaving full size seed trees and all those scruffy little re-gen in the block sure do cause some interesting moments when you have your head out the door at 25' looking at the torch nozzle and flame pattern/fuel loading on the ground. Hey, why not go onto the line, gets you away from hazards......plus as you say, a good 'liner can do some interesting tricks with the load !

 

When we start the spring burns, maybe I'll try.

If it doesn't work, I can always Longline bucket !

 

 

...go big or go home !......