The Blind Leading The Stupid!

[skullcap]

Amodeo(by the way what is an amodeo?)

 

It is our understanding that the two sb's will be AD's very soon.

 

I don't have too many issues with the belt other than it has taken too long to evolve to something descent.

 

I do wish they would install a hydraulic system that had a larger capacity to compensate for high disc loading flight regimes and eliminate the "servo transparency phenomeona" . Perhaps borrow the good old leaky 204 system which works fine. There is no need to search for what if's about servo transperency, it has caused accidents/deaths and will continue to do so to unsuspecting or poorly trained or hotdogging pilots.

 

Don't let the hydraulic failure scenario take away from this dangerous flight charectoristic(sp?), keep the gaurd up, specially in the B model.

 

 

sc

[jetbox]

I know I'm going to sound like a real jerk Skullcap but I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone that ends up in servo transparancy. The only time servo transparancy is an issue is when the pilot is exceeding the design limitations of the A/C. You'll never experience that phenomenon as long as you fly by the book and if you decide to hot dog or fool around, then don't complain that it's a design weakness.

Astars have been around long enough for everybody to be aware of S.T. and we all know what causes it.

Servo transparancy doesn't cause any accidents, irresponsible piloting does!!!!!

 

While we're at it, why don't we install bigger transmissions on Bell 206's to accomodate the assh-les who think it's ok to pull 110 % torque every lift, or install stronger blades on Hughes 500's to accomodate the guys that consistently over gross the disk and then wonder why the friggin blades are breaking off!!!!!!!

 

Fly the A/C like you're supposed to and none of these problems will be an issue!!!

[sharkbait]

MAG SEAL and JETBOX Speak truth.

Not The old Servo Transparency Boogie Man again.

If you get ST then you are at the G limit of the machine as explained in the RFM.

The Twinstar ( dual Hyd Sys ) has a limit light for this purpose.

The controls do not lock, the machine does not pitch up or down, roll, pitch, yaw, swap ends, do a loop, enter a spin or explode.

Relax the back pressure on the cyclic ( If you gotta release FWD pressure you are inverted or doing an outside loop and have just done or are doing something seriously wrong ). Perhaps a reduction in collective and a new plan is in order.

If you experience ST while the ground is in close proximity and is rushing towards you at an inordinate speed you have a huge problem. The a/c should remain controllable a you reef on the cyclic to precude an uncontrolled airframe/earth interface. You will feel feedback and need to muscle through it but the controls will work as intended. The engineers and the Stud Duck will not be kind when you confess to your sins but - hey you deserve it.

The above is meant to be humorous and I hope it will be taken that way.

 

The MNR, I assume, are getting advice from their Aviation Dept. and if it is made a contractual requirement they are the guys paying the bill.

Oil Companies overseas are always demanding extra equipment and their auditors go through the a/c with a fine tooth comb. At the moment, for example, we are carrying a regular ELT, a sonic locator, a water activated ELT, an EPIRB ( worn on the PFs belt) and a portable emergecy VHF. Not to mention the stuff in the 2 rafts. I think the don't trust us to come home at night.

The old dogs will remember when the Iron Ore Company in Sept Isles required the changing of the Pins and fittings in the 206 head at very frequent intervals ( was it 500 hrs?) after a tragic accident when an a/c lost a blade on the QNS+L railway contract.

 

I sincerely hope that they will find out what is causing the Astar problems but I don't think it is servo transparency.

Jeez this is a long post - sorry take so long and say so little useful. ( bored in the Persian Gulf )

[407 Driver]

JetBox, I have to challenge you on your last post Re: Servo transparency....

 

You wrote ....I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone that ends up in servo transparancy. The only time servo transparancy is an issue is when the pilot is exceeding the design limitations of the A/C. You'll never experience that phenomenon as long as you fly by the book and if you decide to hot dog or fool around, then don't complain that it's a design weakness.

 

I have encountered servo transparency in a 350B. I guarantee you that I was not hot-dogging, nor flying outside the design limits...unless that design limit precludes making a 15 degree banked LH turn around a fire at 80 Kts, 4500' +30 C.

 

It happens, and when you least expect it to !

[Blackmac]

Ethopia, doing a fast let down from 8,000 ft to land in Dira Dawa in a super 500C causes the cyclic to move forward rapidly when hitting hot desert air.

 

Maybe I was getting ST without hydraulics.

 

The only time I actually got ST (besides yul)was in a Gazelle, in a dive, drop the collective and pull back on the cyclic and pray, it worked.

 

Cheers Don

[T-rex]

JetBox,

 

You seem to have alot of answers, RE 500 blades falling off due to over grossing the disk. Get with the program! Maybe read up on Torque Events! MD never expected these machines nor designed the blades to do this manevore up to 200 times per hour! Now we have an idea why this is happening. This cracking of the MR blades is happening to operators who have excellent maintenace and piloting programs!

As per ST in an Astar, see what the hydraulics are like in turbulant winds in them there hills we call the Rockies! No stunting around there!

[jetbox]

Sorry boys but the only time I've been in an Astar and we encountered Servo Transpanrancy was when the driver was hot-doging or when they induced it on purpose to demonstrate it during training. If it happens during normal flying conditions, you should probably have the maintenance department fill out an S.D.R. and report the incident to Transport Canada.

T-Rex, those cracking blades owned by these "excellent operators" as you say, how long have they been in that company's fleet and can you be sure that every lift put on those blades since they left the factory was within the A/C's gross weight? (I'm not talkin about torque limits, there's a big difference!) Can you garantee that every pilot that flew that bird before you never over grossed it?

Have you ever seen the reaction on the flying staff when an operator anounces they're going to install tell tale boxes on their ships? You'd be surprised to see how many faces turn red and how many smiles disappear!!!!!!

You might fly by the book and every guy that flies with you might say they do but I'll bet you some of them are lying.

Just something to think about before putting the blame solely on poor design!

 

 

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong Blackmac but you can't get servo transpanrancy if there are no servos on the helicopter!

[skullcap]

What a nice bunch of flatlanders goin off about the wetards getting into servo tranparency and not causing accidents.

 

Have been in SERVO TRANSPARENCY many times(about once a month in the rockies) and not stunting. A thing called turbulence and high altitude and high gross weight(not exceeding a dam thing thankyou). Not a big deal until terra firma( the *****) is coming up too fast as when it did kill a friend of mine and 4 others thank you.

 

Has less to do with disc loading and more with lock number of blades, is why B model blades more susceptable to it than 355 blades(have only been in once with those blades).

 

 

The controls do lock, only way out is to reduce disc load, lower collective/reduce turn.

 

No black magic or voodoo, just a crappy underdesigned hyd system in a great helicopter.

 

sc

[Nomex]

Don't want to start another Astar Hyd discussion, but I also had a ST, this winter on a B2 at 7500ASL, 500AGL, -6c, 60kts, descending left hand turn, got hit with a downdraft. After tapping a bit of down collective it came out without difficulty, after about 2 secs. No high G turn (less than 15 degrees) no hot-dogging. Just density altitude and turbulence.

 

Engineers checked everything out after and nothing amiss.

 

Key here I would say is to realize it will happen in the Astar, even during apparently normal flight ops and to recognize it and know what to do. There are other hyd malfunctions that will cause reactions that may be confused with ST such as the cyclic stiffening up (friction cup) or one servo jamming (slider/pilot valve).

[pitchlink]

Hey guys,

 

You can add me to the list of experiencing ST while within all limits. I've only experienced it once and it was when I was at altitude in a BA and in very turbulent conditions and I wasn't hot doggin!!! I was hovering out of ground effect trying to locate and chase a mother and her cub away from a group of jug hounds when I was hit by a gust. A combination of the gust that brought on the result passing and a reduction in collective cured me of the problem. It only lasted 1 or 2 seconds but it was long enough for me even though I had a relatively flat disk at the time. It's a great helicopter but I agree hydraulics capable of overcoming all possible loads doesn't seem like to much to ask!

 

I don't think an SDR is required for something the RFM describes as smooth and presenting no danger.

 

Regards,

pl