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I just checked, and the current exchange is 1.36. That works out to $1632/hr for a 206.

 

I realize that some companies feel that they can afford to low-ball because the equipment is paid for. Maybe those companies have DOC's and other costs that add up to $500/hr (my number). Now, rather than low-ball and maybe break even, how about commanding $1632/hr. What would you do with the remaining $1132.

 

That is no doubt an un-realistic profit margin, or is it? In my simple little economic black hole, what would a 212 be making a day on a campaign fire? Maybe then I could afford that Valkyrie. Probably not. :(

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I think blackmac has a very valid point. You can post your published rates all you want, but at the end of the day when you are pitching the customer there is a lot of room to move. Especially on the rates posted by nomex. Im sorry but I think its a bit of a stretch to ask those prices when even the Government doesnt pay that high. You should check the published short term contract rates for Alberta forestry. Not even within a few hundred dollars of your prices. Does this mean you would turn down forestry for work? Because they wouldnt come to the table. Of coarse not. When companies are putting 205's out for under $2000 it makes it kind of tough to compete. As for the customer accepting the lowest offer. Thats just business. Everyone is here to make money. some can be educated and some do see the value of not lowballing. But for most it just means a bigger profit margin.

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Blackmac - I'm not being idealistic or unrealistic and there is nothing for us to fight over, T-Rex just suggested posting what the tariffs are that various companies have, and I did as ours our not secret, and like I said, the vast majority of all our charters are for those rates - they're not just a figure that doesn't mean anything or that is written down to be discounted at every opportunity - that's our company and I know it won't apply to all other companies. The rates haven't changed for a couple of years except for fuel going up and down. There was no intention to start a big discussion on rates...

 

T-Rex, yes those rates are for the 17, not the 13.

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USA in area's is very interesting!

 

Yes, alot of rates are productive towards the Operator's there. The machine is a fixed rate per hour for the day. If you require a truck engineer and other ops gear, this is extra!!! Nothing wrong with this thinking!

 

Where would we be if the helo showed up and the client was advised if he required an Engineer and vehicle to be on site it would be another $400 a day! Oh, a water bucket and ops gear, humm another $25 per flight hour! ( come on, it's only a $9000 Bambi) I wish, we are abused, but have no one to blame but ourselves!!

 

Where is Eutopia ???

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T-Rex, look at the trouble you got me in!!! Actually I guess it was 407D that started this and now where are you to help out?!?!

 

Pitchlink posted after my last - there is no doubt that contracts have different rates, AFS, BCFS, Hydro etc, as well different geographical areas generally have higher and/or lower tariffs. The max discounted rates I mentioned earlier are for the 206, so the more expensive machines will have higher discounted rates for such contracts.

 

Do we otherwise turn down work because of demand for lower tariffs - yes if the tariff requested is unrealistic. Believe it or not, we get the rates I posted or very close, for the majority of charters.

 

407D - I'm sure last summer you were getting appropriate tariffs for practicing your long-lining - we got full tariff - the government does pay that high.

 

There, I'm getting out of this thread.

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Yes, maybe there are more creative ways to increase the rates, instead of the one price for the complete package.

 

Why not take it to the next step? Customer X who is looking for operators to provide 1500 + hrs experienced pilots to do routine flying. Maybe operators could start charging for that experience. :up:

 

I agree that some customers are running their budgets to the max just to utilise helicopters for a certain job. That doesn't justify giving the thing away! As elitist as this sounds, maybe those types of customers should not be encouraged. It is a luxury, and should be treated as such.

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Nomex: One day possibly I will say something that people will not forever believe that I have another agenda in mind.

 

If you are getting the rates you want for your choppers, all the more power to you.

 

My remark was that so called published rates are not worth the paper they are written on. End of story. No fight required.

 

Cheers Don

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One of the problems that is now being encountered in both Europe and this part of the world is the rich private owner who buys a new toy, then gives it to an operator to help "cover the costs". The operator is then able to charge it out at much less because its not his and only has to try and break even. The problem for the commercial operator that owns and operates his own machines is that he has to now drop his prices to compete, or lose the work, and he doesnt have the rich guy underwriting the costs of the said aircraft.

 

Heli Ops

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A similar method would be the use of "fractionals", something that is becoming increasingly common south of the border. I'm not 100% sure how they work, but it seems that a group of individuals get together and purchase or lease an A/C and then divide the usage up accordingly.

 

I don't know if this is a common pracitise in this country, or what the possible implications for the helicopter industry might be.

 

O.K, last post I swear! I'm supposed to be out doing yard work. B)

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Nomex, don't leave !! I'm not sure what you are reading in these posts, but there is nothing wrong with what has been said by anyone........this is the sort of discussion we all hope for on this forum.......and surprisingly, it is still on-topic.

Not everyone will agree with each other, and I'm afraid there is not a definite solution to this problem on the horizon, but it's a great topic.

 

Here's my thoughts on the difference between 'good' and 'bad' companies...........

We often thought of the 'bad' companies as being the guys with lower published tariffs......but everyone starts with a similar published tariff, even the company from PQ that is the subject of this topic.

But, some companies are very willing to slash their tariffs to guarantee they will get the job.......often going way below the second-lowest bidder. These are who we should refer to as being the 'bad' companies.

Some companies rarely let machines go out for much less than their published tariff, (such as Nomex's and 407 Driver's I suspect), and these are the 'good' companies.

We must be careful when judging companies..........some may have a slightly lower published tariff, but rarely sell-for-less,......meanwhile some announce high rates and then have massive fire-sales to get their machinery working.

As mentioned above, allowances have to be made for steady customers, such as Hydro etc., but again, this should not be a cause for massive discounting.

 

Some companies leave the rate high, then don't charge minimums. A recent topic here about being paid for Non-Rev ferry flights would not have arisen if the pilot (and the company) were being paid minimums.

 

The Marketing guys in some companies are often to blame here. These guys seem happy to sign-up customers, yet they seem to have no consideration for whether the Accounting department will make a profit out of the customer's cheque when it arrives several months later.

.....(and don't forget to allow for the expenses incurred in signing-up the customer by these Marketing wizards.....often former pilots that have a penchant for playing golf and drinking booze on the company's tab)!!

 

As pilots and engineers there is little that we can do about the rates that our bosses let the machines go out for. But we should be able to determine how much we charge for our services per hour.

How much of the $600 per hour mentioned above is going to the pilot and engineer ? Are they being paid a fair wage ?? If not, why not......did they slash their hourly rates ? Or does the employer have to use-and-abuse low-timers to cover costs ?

 

Here's a thought......should we actually be publishing our own wage rates here instead of our bosses tariffs ? Should we check for low-ballers in our midsts before we complain about others ?

Or am I thinking to much about stuff we have little control over ??? Hmmmmmm....

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