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CJM91

Tsb Report: Aug 2008 B206l Crash Near Terrace

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Howell makes a beautiful gauge for Astar which not only records Q, NG it shows

Q,NG, and NR with and does so in a digital and light format(like 407 gauges). Has touch sensitive face to change digital viewing format.

 

But as some numbskulls did when they needed to overtorque to lift a heavy load they would undue the cannonplug on back of gauge......

 

Oh and it also count cycles precisely and accurately.

 

 

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CMJ91 -----------you do what you have to do to keep your a/c operating and the customer happy, but the former remains supreme at all times for two reason:

 

(1) After all is said and done your a/c is put together with parts submitted by the lowest bidder. Only approximately thirty-five per cent of a 206 is made up of parts that are made by Bell proper and the rest is from outside contractors. Numerous parts are made by farm implement manufacturers. M/R blades on Bell 206's were leaving their grips a bunch of years ago. It grounded ALL 206's worldwide for most of a week. It was called "pins & fittings". I was grounded with the rest and upon removal had my pins and fittings thrown down to me by the engineers working up on the deck. I missed the drop and they shattered into five pieces on the hangar floor. I'd just landed about 2 hours before. Manufactuer? A farm implement firm in Kansas City, MO. Every time since then that I find it necessary to made a high G turn of some type, that pins and fittings episode flashes through my mind. Helps to flatten-out that turn a tad unless it's absolutely neceassy :D .

 

(2) Torture your a/c all you please and in any way you so please, BUT always remember this. Unless there's been a crew-change last night, then you know the pilot intimently who will strap his heinie into that same a/c that has been abused this morning........YOU.

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Tatel-Tale gauges are not the answer unless the operator accepts the pilots explanation for an exceedance over the computer.

Unfortunately it tends to be the other way around.

I know an experienced pilot who recorded an extreme, almost unbelievable 121 % TQ exceedance on a 407. An impossible senario considering the MGT (TOT) was within normal range throughout.

Operator believed the computer, over the protestations of the pilot, fired him then spend huge money taking the machine apart to discover....nothing!

That same machine went on to record an exceedance, in SL flight on the MGT several days later.

Tatel-tale gauges are not the answer....but instruments that are clearly visible and easy to read while you are in the middle of a heavy lift with your head out the door are.

Guess that's why the 61 has a second pilot reading instruments while the driver watches the tree(s) come off the ground.

Would somebody please come up with a plug-in HUD for a helicopter helmet that shows ALL the important engine information, plus the weight on the hook, so you can do it all without constantly moving your eyes (head) back and forth from the load to the gauges, but then who does that...right....living in the belief that what we don't know won't hurt us.

Just the next guy.

"....I don't care, it's not my helicopter"

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Tatel-Tale gauges are not the answer unless the operator accepts the pilots explanation for an exceedance over the computer.

Unfortunately it tends to be the other way around.

I know an experienced pilot who recorded an extreme, almost unbelievable 121 % TQ exceedance on a 407. An impossible senario considering the MGT (TOT) was within normal range throughout.

Operator believed the computer, over the protestations of the pilot, fired him then spend huge money taking the machine apart to discover....nothing!

That same machine went on to record an exceedance, in SL flight on the MGT several days later.

Tatel-tale gauges are not the answer....but instruments that are clearly visible and easy to read while you are in the middle of a heavy lift with your head out the door are.

Guess that's why the 61 has a second pilot reading instruments while the driver watches the tree(s) come off the ground.

Would somebody please come up with a plug-in HUD for a helicopter helmet that shows ALL the important engine information, plus the weight on the hook, so you can do it all without constantly moving your eyes (head) back and forth from the load to the gauges, but then who does that...right....living in the belief that what we don't know won't hurt us.

Just the next guy.

"....I don't care, it's not my helicopter"

 

Howell gauge is a gauge which was designed for floor mount(external load ops) and can be read in any light.

 

They are the answer if you work for people who are not idiots,,,,q high and temps not=something wrong with system. If you had an overtorque that was not intentional or not it still helps show exact amounts for maintenance folks to do their job.

 

Two pilot system in B2 moving bags or drills???? Kinda thought you needed two pilots in 61 to actually operate it....not 2 pilots in k-max doing same work....

 

VIH put diamond J gauges in 500's years ago and reduced operating cost on engine drastically(the second year).

 

 

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This is what I like to see on this forum, valuable discussion!

 

My heart goes out to the friends and family!

 

There are 3 clear parts to this accident, those stretchy plastic lines, over gross weight, collective bounce. In my opinion the collective bounce would not have happened if not for the weight and the line.

 

Anyone with some time has been over gross; the demands to "geterdone" are real. The pressure to lift a load that a "driller" has decided you can do does not come from them. It's our desire to keep them happy that causes us to exceed limits. There-for the "PRESSURE" to exceed limits is self induced. Once we realize it is the machine that can't do it and not us the pressure subsides. The other guy excuse we use is wrong, it takes someone to say no first, and then it will be easier for the "OTHER GUY" to say no. When making an approach with high all up weight it is important to reduce the last bit of speed gradually, so you have the option of pushing forward if we start to run out of power. That feeling of sinking with full power applied is a scary thing, pushing forward will stop the sink. Aplying hover power before commitment will leave an escape.

Note: I was not in the machine so I am only making assumptions on what I have read and having been put in this position too many times. If after you have read the eye witness account of what happened, you decide to push too hard, I hope you remember. We must learn from the misfortune of others as there are way too many unfortunate things coming our way.

 

I know the new lines we see so much of today are so light and easy to pack around but good old steel is the way to go. They don’t break, don't stretch (not much) and are more stable. My preference for sure. I'm still unsure why the load was not dumped, but I have never experienced what he was feeling. I think hellilogs shoulder helps me understand.

 

I have never experienced collective bounce, but can see what a terrifying phenomenon it must be. I will include some discussion on this matter is my commercial ops classes. I'm tempted to go out and play with it, see if I can induce it, but I should probable keep my tail boom attached.

 

 

I hate commenting on these subjects, a man I have never met lost his life. I mean no disrespect, and again my condolences to all involved. It's too bad we don't have these discussions more often, and it would be preferable to do it sooner rather than later.

 

 

Rob

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I also think this was probably all started with "settling with power'. Uncontrolable decent with full power aplied, but not entering "vortex ring state".

 

 

Rob

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Hi Happyguy,

407s have had a problem with recording erroneous exceedances since they first came out.

(I don't know if it has been fixed yet. It has been many years since I've flown one).

 

The operator should have known this (as well as his engineering crew) before he fired the pilot.

 

Digital gauges (or tattle-tales) are great, and they are the way of the future.

Please don't knock them because the 407 system had a well-known, obvious and minor fault.

 

OT

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We often do not agree with the regs and they're sometimes inconvenient, impractical, etc. However, I wonder how many of us would hire a doctor, accountant, or any other professional who is known to have broken their rules, has cheated, or performed any other unethical practice - even once? As professional pilots isn't there an obligation to honour the rules of the trade?

 

The heli industry in general is decades behind when it comes to safety practices. Other industries are creating "safety cultures". When incidents arise they look not at "how did you F*&k up?" but rather where did we go wrong and how can we prevent this from happening again? Occurence reporting is encouraged. Discipline is a last resort and only where there was deliberate negligence. Wouldn't it be refreshing to hear an operator say, "sorry I sent you on that drill job in a Long Ranger. We should have hired the competition's B2 instead?"

 

 

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...

Anyone with some time has been over gross; the demands to "geterdone" are real. The pressure to lift a load that a "driller" has decided you can do does not come from them. It's our desire to keep them happy that causes us to exceed limits. There-for the "PRESSURE" to exceed limits is self induced. Once we realize it is the machine that can't do it and not us the pressure subsides. The other guy excuse we use is wrong, it takes someone to say no first, and then it will be easier for the "OTHER GUY" to say no. When making an approach with high all up weight it is important to reduce the last bit of speed gradually, so you have the option of pushing forward if we start to run out of power. That feeling of sinking with full power applied is a scary thing, pushing forward will stop the sink. Aplying hover power before commitment will leave an escape.

Note: I was not in the machine so I am only making assumptions on what I have read and having been put in this position too many times. If after you have read the eye witness account of what happened, you decide to push too hard, I hope you remember. We must learn from the misfortune of others as there are way too many unfortunate things coming our way.

...

I hate commenting on these subjects, a man I have never met lost his life. I mean no disrespect, and again my condolences to all involved. It's too bad we don't have these discussions more often, and it would be preferable to do it sooner rather than later.

 

Rob

Great comments. It would be good if the attitudes in your first paragraph became the norm but I think that the self- and peer-induced pressure to "geterdone" still predominates.

 

It may be too much to expect individual pilots, of varying experience and personalities, and mostly working alone, to each blaze a trail to a more professional standard. It's a pretty lonely feeling to see some ugly piece of drill equipment still glued to the deck as the TQ needle comes up to 100%. At that point, backing off would be easier if the pilot felt that company and peer support was lined up on his/her side (not that it always isn't).

 

Perhaps, instead of the tedious and barely-relevant DG material (as currently presented), a short PDM-like course on "Customer Relations" (How to Say No and Keep Your Job) would be useful. If well designed, it would lend credibility to the notion that pilots who decline extra heavy loads, bad weather, drunk or un-briefed passengers, etc. are not part of a wimpy, picky fringe element but are actually the responsible majority.

 

I hate commenting on these subjects, a man I have never met lost his life. I mean no disrespect, and again my condolences to all involved. It's too bad we don't have these discussions more often, and it would be preferable to do it sooner rather than later.

I think we all understand what you mean. It is so sad that it takes such a tragedy to put a spotlight on these issues.

 

The comments from fajitachocad are perceptive also.

 

Thank you, cheers . . . . .

 

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As far as 407's ....they have had a lot of problems with connectors on gauges...we had one guy pick up and with very low gross weight the torque was almost at 100%...was a connector ...so I feel real bad that someone got canned over a Bell problem...on the side .... tattletale torque gauges.... I tried to talk a former chief engineer into having them installed...his line...we will be out of business in a week if we install them.... :rolleyes:

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