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Phil Croucher

Confined Areas

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Once again I will have to go with jetb and skyworks...also if there is a safe place to put the tail...ie..over a cliff or over water usally will set up to keep tailrotor somewhere in the clear or as memtioned do turns around the tail...all good posts :D

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It has been mentioned about unloading the tail rotor when at high power settings to achieve extra lift ?? If the yaw rate then procedes to exceed t/r authority, how are you going to stop it ???? :o

 

 

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Guest jacdor
It has been mentioned about unloading the tail rotor when at high power settings to achieve extra lift ?? If the yaw rate then procedes to exceed t/r authority, how are you going to stop it ???? :o

 

 

I would like to say a word here about some of the little tricks pilots have and that is being said out of experience in using them, trying them to see if they work or not.

I flew B206 A/B models and other C18 and C20 engined aircraft and yes at that time you had to learn, invent, swear, kick be very creative in trying to get something done with these machines.Without exceeding the parameters of the aircraft of course.

Some of these tricks were useful, some were suicide cases, some totally useless and dangerous.

 

Now unloading the tail rotor is one of the trick and in some situation it could be useful and I don't know what technique BM or Phil were talking about but I have mine, It may or may not be same technique

Very useful up high and hot especially on 204 and even better on 204 1/2 . Actually with good coordination and timing you would be amazed a what you can get out of these things and REMAIN within the limits specified for the aircraft

 

But the problem here is that "walls have ears" some of those walls are young and inexperience and like Helilog56 said in a different way maybe but some of those little tricks could put a pilot in a dangerous situation and all that to try getting one extra PSI or so or just want clear the trees in front of me.

 

Hate to spoil the party but some of these tricks should be explained and practiced with instructors or training pilots but not written in a forums.

I can just see that 206 upside down in the hole and Pilot saying "well in Vertical forum they said ...."

 

Did hear some scary techniques in my career not often or many but the one i heard gave me goose bumps thinking the guy actually tried that with pax on board.

 

NOT all of them are risky, some good tricks ,habits and good techniques taught right at the start by a good instructor will give the young pilot that extra PSI or % right there at the start and for the rest of his professional life.

 

JD

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I would like to say a word here about some of the little tricks pilots have and that is being said out of experience in using them, trying them to see if they work or not.

I flew B206 A/B models and other C18 and C20 engined aircraft and yes at that time you had to learn, invent, swear, kick be very creative in trying to get something done with these machines.Without exceeding the parameters of the aircraft of course.

Some of these tricks were useful, some were suicide cases, some totally useless and dangerous.

 

Now unloading the tail rotor is one of the trick and in some situation it could be useful and I don't know what technique BM or Phil were talking about but I have mine, It may or may not be same technique

Very useful up high and hot especially on 204 and even better on 204 1/2 . Actually with good coordination and timing you would be amazed a what you can get out of these things and REMAIN within the limits specified for the aircraft

 

But the problem here is that "walls have ears" some of those walls are young and inexperience and like Helilog56 said in a different way maybe but some of those little tricks could put a pilot in a dangerous situation and all that to try getting one extra PSI or so or just want clear the trees in front of me.

 

Hate to spoil the party but some of these tricks should be explained and practiced with instructors or training pilots but not written in a forums.

I can just see that 206 upside down in the hole and Pilot saying "well in Vertical forum they said ...."

 

Did hear some scary techniques in my career not often or many but the one i heard gave me goose bumps thinking the guy actually tried that with pax on board.

 

NOT all of them are risky, some good tricks ,habits and good techniques taught right at the start by a good instructor will give the young pilot that extra PSI or % right there at the start and for the rest of his professional life.

 

JD

I'm all for not spreading these hairy-assed 'techniques' amongst the great unwashed. If you have to resort to these methods you are trying WAY TOO HARD. The slightest extra problem and you are in the trees or grossly overstressing the engine/airframe, not to mention scaring the crap out of the passengers. Running at min. NR on a 204 or stirring the stick a bit on a 412 to vertical out of a hole are reputed to work but I never had much luck with either, but at least you are climbing vertically and under full control as you try them. With most helicopters, if you can't get out of the hole pulling max desired power and holding the stick dead steady, maybe you should throw off some weight.

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But the problem here is that "walls have ears" some of those walls are young and inexperience and like Helilog56 said in a different way maybe but some of those little tricks could put a pilot in a dangerous situation and all that to try getting one extra PSI or so or just want clear the trees in front of me.

 

Hate to spoil the party but some of these tricks should be explained and practiced with instructors or training pilots but not written in a forums.

I can just see that 206 upside down in the hole and Pilot saying "well in Vertical forum they said ...."

 

Did hear some scary techniques in my career not often or many but the one i heard gave me goose bumps thinking the guy actually tried that with pax on board.

 

NOT all of them are risky, some good tricks ,habits and good techniques taught right at the start by a good instructor will give the young pilot that extra PSI or % right there at the start and for the rest of his professional life.

 

JD

 

 

Well said. You can always make another trip if you have to. When I have been in tight spots at gross weight sometimes moving half of your gear to a larger spot is the safest way of getting the job done. Get to a spot where you have some room to use translational lift. This doesn't always work but it can be a useful "out" if you need it.

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Well said jacdor,

 

I have been trying to decide how to include something to this thread, but alas if I comment with some advice for new pilots all the old guys will jump on me with the whole "well operationally you can’t do it that way" and I'm afraid I don't want to encourage some 200 hr 44 driver to start a spiral climb out of a confined area.

 

But truly the TRICKS we use to get that last little bit of lift are not really tricks. They all have aerodynamic principals behind them. (They have to or they wouldn't work) Being able to take just a little more usually includes patience. With experience we learn the little things, and the little things make a big difference.

 

But I would hope a new pilot would ask questions and evaluate a new technique before trying it. I can't see a chief pilot being happy with, "I saw this guy doing a right pedal turn out of a confined area and it worked for him, sorry about the tailrotor, guess I'm not ready for that yet".

 

 

rob

 

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Perhaps I should clarify the technique of "unloading the tailrotor"

 

I should have said unload the tailrotor a little bit. I don't mean to throw an additional 250 lb logger on board and pull up spinning to the right in a blur. Given the right conditions- know where the steady wind is coming from and all departures into wind only. Try it with a lighter load and give yourself an imaginary max torque setting- ie: 85% or so with a JetRanger just in case.

 

Put the nose of the aircraft at the 10:30 or 11:00 position (Bell products) increase collective to a steady climb, as you are climbing SLOWLY let the nose of the aircraft turn clockwise to the 1:00 position just as you are adding forward cyclic as you leave the confined area tree tops.

Real important: don't let the aircraft get away from you and spin past the 1:30 or 2:00 position or you will have a bad day. (it will spin around as soon as the wind catches the tail fin.)

 

This is for departures, not landings but again if you come into a confined area heavy, set the nose at 11:00 position again and as collective is pulled, if you take a little pressure off the left pedal and end up at the 1:00 position, this works also- Make sure the 11:00-1:00 position will work for setting the machine down on the ground first on your scouting orbit. Again try this using 85% or so as a max torque setting in case of problems.

 

This also works on mountain ridge landings, into wind, approach from the right of your spot at about 45 degree angle and you will find yourself using less left pedal, as the machine torques to the right, as you are over your spot, set it down steering it with the collective mostly. This works good as well when the wind is steady off the nose. Again try this with an imaginary torque setting. You will find about a 10% difference in an approach from the left as one from the right.

 

If you need 2 trips to get everything into a spot, do it. Don't use this method to substitute a way that you know works.

 

If you don't feel right about this procedure, don't do it. It is just a little trick you learn as you go.

 

B.M.

 

 

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Black Mike the way you explained that could be put down to :you learn something everyday:, have been doing those techniques for a long time but the way you explained that without physically showing someone in a helo is great. I just learnt how to explain that procedure to someone a lot better than I have been doing so.

 

Thanks

Skywork

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Guest Up&away
Perhaps I should clarify the technique of "unloading the tailrotor"

 

I should have said unload the tailrotor a little bit. I don't mean to throw an additional 250 lb logger on board and pull up spinning to the right in a blur. Given the right conditions- know where the steady wind is coming from and all departures into wind only. Try it with a lighter load and give yourself an imaginary max torque setting- ie: 85% or so with a JetRanger just in case.

 

Put the nose of the aircraft at the 10:30 or 11:00 position (Bell products) increase collective to a steady climb, as you are climbing SLOWLY let the nose of the aircraft turn clockwise to the 1:00 position just as you are adding forward cyclic as you leave the confined area tree tops.

Real important: don't let the aircraft get away from you and spin past the 1:30 or 2:00 position or you will have a bad day. (it will spin around as soon as the wind catches the tail fin.)

 

This is for departures, not landings but again if you come into a confined area heavy, set the nose at 11:00 position again and as collective is pulled, if you take a little pressure off the left pedal and end up at the 1:00 position, this works also- Make sure the 11:00-1:00 position will work for setting the machine down on the ground first on your scouting orbit. Again try this using 85% or so as a max torque setting in case of problems.

 

This also works on mountain ridge landings, into wind, approach from the right of your spot at about 45 degree angle and you will find yourself using less left pedal, as the machine torques to the right, as you are over your spot, set it down steering it with the collective mostly. This works good as well when the wind is steady off the nose. Again try this with an imaginary torque setting. You will find about a 10% difference in an approach from the left as one from the right.

 

If you need 2 trips to get everything into a spot, do it. Don't use this method to substitute a way that you know works.

 

If you don't feel right about this procedure, don't do it. It is just a little trick you learn as you go.

 

B.M.

For starters you must be way outside the WAT chart if you have to use this procedure. When you screw up the insurance company is going to have a hay day, plus you will most likly loose your job. Sure you didn't over torque or exceed any red lines but your over gross which is hard on the aircraft But your the hero the other pilot couldn't do it. That type of flying is long gone and the insurance companys we can thank for it.

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