Confined Areas

[hybrid]

Hey Black Mike your technique has a lot of merit and did from the first place. You don't need to be over loaded in a Jetbox @ 25 degrees @ 3500 ft. to have difficulty getting out of a confined area.

 

Before some keener decides to pull out a flight manual to dispute the figures, I concede I don't have a manual in front of me. So you might have to jack up the temp. 10 degrees and add a thousand feet, if the numbers still don't fit do it again.

 

Oh yea it works in an A-star too

[Phil Croucher]

That's pretty much it, except for saying that co-ordination and smoothness on the controls is the key. And you don't really have to be outside the WAT chart to use it. We're often on a rig in Dubai where the wind is awkward (they never put them in good places) and you need to get yourself quickly into a good position (and we're taking about a hot day with a 212). In our case we use it to get ourselves quickly into wind if it's not quite on the nose.

 

For the record (although I'm sure you know these already):

 

Just because a technique works for one helicopter, doesn't mean it works for others

 

On twins you always need power in hand, because they will cut the power right when you need it if you're heavy, so your margin is important

 

Techniques such as these should not be used to skirt the edges of safety. Treat them as a weapon in your armoury for occasional use. Otherwise, as Rob says, they are aerodynamically sound and a legitimate use of the machine IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.

 

As far as the TC syllabus goes, though, I won't even mention it.

 

Phil

[Guest jacdor]

i wounder where ur gross weight is that u need to unload the tail rotor...

 

 

And this is also for Up&Away, YES you could use some of those techniques to pull the heart out of an aircraft if you wanted to.

But that is not the point here, in your career you may end up flying an underpower aircraft or end up in places/conditions/situations were your limits will not be the gross weight of your aircraft even if you tried really hard.

Altitude, heat, humidity, time of the day, engine being borderline just to name a few can bring up other limits. temp, N1

in some places it is even hard and scary to start the engine passed 10 oclock in the morning.

 

All those little tricks ARE for not to go over the limits in some situations.

 

Now we kind of hijack Phil's tread here i think.

 

Here is one for the book maybe. If the confine area permits, size, trees etc it is easier to go or land at the back of the hole (front being upwind side) that way you stay away from the downflowing/turbulant air at the front near the trees. You use the upflowing/steady air at the back to climb out and you start moving foward when you hit the clean flowing air just above the tree tops

 

JD

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest jacdor]

OOps

 

Jd

[Black Mike]

For starters you must be way outside the WAT chart if you have to use this procedure. When you screw up the insurance company is going to have a hay day, plus you will most likly loose your job. Sure you didn't over torque or exceed any red lines but your over gross which is hard on the aircraft But your the hero the other pilot couldn't do it. That type of flying is long gone and the insurance companys we can thank for it.

 

U and A,

 

This procedure wasn't meant to out do the competition or another pilot. It is just an efficient way to accomplish something that some day you might be happy you know how to do. If you read my comments, this can be done at any power setting. I did not mean to overload the aircraft, or become a hero, or even run it to the limits in the flight manual. Just a little trick that may help in the future. Once you start flying in the mountains, you will need a pocket full of these types of procedures or you may as well stay home.

 

If you look at the original request from Phil, I was just giving my input. He already knows how to do normal "text book" confined area procedures.

 

Phil, back to you, I didn't want this to get into a pi$$ing contest.

 

B.M.

 

By the way, I hope I don't get fired.

 

[3BX2]

Good Post on that method BM, I have done that type of 206 departure for years....SAFELY, and without exceeding any limits.

 

That would be a shame if "your Boss" fired you !

[Jammed left]

I think HL comments are important....it's a great trick...but quite often the tricks are learned without the potential traps pointed out. I know of a jetbox that ended up in pieces because a young fella was trying to use a 'trick' to get out of an area. Things like unloading tail rotors are great things for young pilots to understand, but we should also teaching that sometimes the trick is to do another trip, or to abort the landing....

 

Speaking of which Phil...I think that should be added to the list of things to teach...aborting landings, commitment points etc. The more accident reports I read, the more I realize that 'an approach with an option to land' is a great way to get guys thinking about operations...that way when things go wrong, they already have a plan instead of trying to make things up when it hits the fan...

 

my 2 cents

 

Cheers

JL

[Cirrus]

This sounds a little like "The Spinning Takeoff." Ken Armstrong wrote about it in his safety article the April/May/June 2004 Helicopters Magazine. It's the last paragraph. HERE.

 

And when it goes bad.. Video.

[Jet B]

On the subject of confined area safety, I thought of a couple more really important things that new pilots should have drilled into their heads.

 

1. Never, ever, ever roll power to an idle while sitting on a surface that has the potential of being unstable. If you are rolling it down, you better be planning on shutting down and you better be 120% sure of the stability. I have seen too many machines tip off unstable log pad contraptions and one Jetbuggy rolled over 200 feet in front of me because he rolled it to an idle while waiting for a pax on rotten layers of snow in the mountains.

 

2. When landing in a snowy confined area, be aware of the possible whiteout and make sure you are close enough to some kind of dark, distinct visual reference.

 

 

[Zazu]

Thank Goodness for Patience....BM clarified it a little bit. I've used the 10-1 formula on the way out on a few occassions but that is only if I have a spot to go to if things go sour...ie down hill or down a pipeline right of way. After a few thousand hours I still don't have the balls to use that formula on the flats landing into a lease site though I have used it in the hills. Into wind wherever possible or if in A-Star with reduced load downwind. I still use the tried and true power management method...low and slow with the spot in auto/holy sh.t distance and check power. If anything else you know what to tell your clients (the biggest stresser by far) when you go to take off if by chance you have to double hop it out of there.

 

I find that the more experience I get the more I stop wanting to prove something to myself. Besides...the customers are starting to like my grey hairs, at least what I have left of them anyways.

 

In the end Phil I would say that pre-flight and machine knowledge are the best 2 things to have in your back pocket when doing confines...the ever present "Holy Wind" nothwithstanding. If I knew where I was and where I was going and knew the machine...as long as the wind and the "Gods" were favourable...I knew I could land it. As someone already mentioned...if your butt puckers keep on trucking through that way out that you should have already planned for...and for the love of God charge the customer for it and don't be sorry! Don't forget to do your power checks.

 

Fly Safe All

Zazu