College Of Professional Pilots

[Guest Bullet Remington]

Splitpin & The Bullet:

 

Without Prejudice

 

Of all people to criticize your fellow Matlo would be you guys. I never had much love for CAMC, but I do believe there are more AME's in the industry than pilots, so how come we are just hearing about this now.

 

I started HEPAC for engineers and pilots and got more support from pilots than engineers, so maybe you should go figure.

 

We all know where we come from an engineer is just a frustrated pilot and a pilot is an engineer who never made it. I am really frustrated as a retired M1/M2/Pilot

 

Splitpin, that is the longest post you have ever made, has BR been given you lessons.

 

With all due respect the AME's have had association long before the pilots. If you are stuck with non-entities, is that the fault of the pilots????

 

The College, at present is not dancing the TEXAS two step, we will try one step at a time.

 

In the meantime try and get your shyte together with the rest of the AME's and see what the future brings.

 

Cheers, Don

 

 

Don: Really? No really?? You MAy be just hearing about this NOW because you haven't been listening! Engineers have been bitching about working conditions and pay, etc, for eons. If you care to take the time a dig around the TCCA M & M site specifically, the whole site generally, you'll find at least three studies done on the working conditions aof the AME generally, and the effects of fatique specifically in at least one! it's been going on for at least 20 years that i know off. it would occur to me that IF an individual was as deeply concerned about the SMS fiasco as you profess to be, you would be aware of this! Now I haven't been in the industry as lonmg as that crusty old bugger Splitty, I am a young snot - only got 38 year experience so what the Fugg do I know??

 

And I am NOT a fustrated pilot, While I do have a driver's license, I had a choice. I took the job that required some thinking! Another reason I got out of the flying was the hi pitch whinning, NOT from the engines, from the other people the owner stuck in the right hand seat with me! The me , me ,me syndrome must be taught to you guys in flight school is it?? I do have some trouble grasping how people can be born being that so self absorbed!! Plus, it's a lot more entertaining steering you drivers around by these big honkin handles y áll have sticking out!

 

Now I've gone back and read the posts twice!! I have no idea what set you off on this tangent/ Something stuck up your butt?? If it is come out and say it. OR do you just like to go off on people for no appearant reason??

 

As for your statement re: the numbers on pilots versus engineers in Hepac, I will have to take your word. I have no way to confirm nor deny your statement. But, If you care to take a look you'll see that I WAS a paid up member of HEPAC despite me belief that the main interests being addressed were those of pilots.

 

Now as I stated, I've been in this racket for 38 years. And the reason I don't wish to get involved with a driver's association is because of just that. It's a drivers association. Even out in the field working side by side with the driver's the ONLY concern the driver has ever had was himself. He didn't give a shyte that I worked all night to get his machine ready to go. He woke me up to tell him what I did because he too was to God Damned lazy and self centred to read the logbook! It's always been an us scenario in this business. Never a we. Always will be until venus aligns with my anus and an AME association is successful in getting a coalition of crusty cantankerous engineers that have enough support to stop everything long enough to scare the shyte outa the drivers and owners.

 

Until that time, we'll go it on our own. College of Pilots, Hepac, or whatever. Who give s a shyte?? It's just a bunch of self centred insecure driver's looking after themselves! Don't expect us AME's to give a shyte nor get behind what any of you are doing.

 

Here's a piece of advice for all you drivers. Wanna impress us engineers? Shut The fugg up and drive the machine. If we want anything else from you, we'll ask. Even though we know we ain't ever gonna get it!!

 

As for CAMC, I looked at that oragization and it has been most successful in denigrating the AME rather then in furthering the AM. Have a look at the members and directors of that association! Again, NOTHING for the AME. Military and owners. The directionthat CAMC is headed is the same direction and goals that the CBAA is at now. And AME's have no use for it!

 

As for this new college thingy, I don't care what you driver's call it, you guys are STILL gonna get steered regardless what label you stick on your little boys club!!

 

As for AME's there are 12,000 in Canada. I 'm not sure how many drivers there are, and I don't care. They pump them outa the flying schools by the truckload yearly! A dime a dozen is too much so what does it matter? What matters is the number of drivers and engineers that are working.

 

Now I'm off to get more bananas. That monkey I'm training to operate my machine eats alot!!

[InspectorGadget]

Splitpin & The Bullet:

 

Without Prejudice

 

Of all people to criticize your fellow Matlo would be you guys. I never had much love for CAMC, but I do believe there are more AME's in the industry than pilots, so how come we are just hearing about this now.

 

I started HEPAC for engineers and pilots and got more support from pilots than engineers, so maybe you should go figure.

 

Every SINGLE active helicopter company I know of has Meat servo's outnumbering wrenches almost 2 to 1!

 

And if you take into account everyone else out there in Canada who buys a pilots license at thier local corner store, I bet the number would be more like 10:1.

 

Ask a pilot how many machines he is responsible for. 1

Ask an engineer how many he is responisble for. Probably at least 1 if not more like 2 or 3.

 

Its pretty simple math though. Every machine takes at least 1 pilot to drive it. But every engineer get at least 1 machine to take care of.

[CD]

Why is there STILL no duty day regulations.

Now there is a great question. There was some discussion here back in 2004 on the regulations that the Department was bringing forward to address the fatigue issue in the maintenance field:

 

Fatique Risk Management, duty times for engineers

 

There were two regulatory proposals brought forward to the CARAC meeting in May 2005 and both were withdrawn:

 

Special Joint Technical Committee Meeting on Maintenance and Manufacturing (M&M)-Part V and Commercial Air Service Operations (CASO)-Part VII May 31 - June 1, 2005

 

Now, it looks like it's possible that they aren't going to regulate at all -- just have everyone voluntarily adopt a FRMS... or not.

[splitpin]

Don: Really? No really?? You MAy be just hearing about this NOW because you haven't been listening! Engineers have been bitching about working conditions and pay, etc, for eons. If you care to take the time a dig around the TCCA M & M site specifically, the whole site generally, you'll find at least three studies done on the working conditions aof the AME generally, and the effects of fatique specifically in at least one! it's been going on for at least 20 years that i know off. it would occur to me that IF an individual was as deeply concerned about the SMS fiasco as you profess to be, you would be aware of this! Now I haven't been in the industry as lonmg as that crusty old bugger Splitty, I am a young snot - only got 38 year experience so what the Fugg do I know??

 

And I am NOT a fustrated pilot, While I do have a driver's license, I had a choice. I took the job that required some thinking! Another reason I got out of the flying was the hi pitch whinning, NOT from the engines, from the other people the owner stuck in the right hand seat with me! The me , me ,me syndrome must be taught to you guys in flight school is it?? I do have some trouble grasping how people can be born being that so self absorbed!! Plus, it's a lot more entertaining steering you drivers around by these big honkin handles y áll have sticking out!

 

Now I've gone back and read the posts twice!! I have no idea what set you off on this tangent/ Something stuck up your butt?? If it is come out and say it. OR do you just like to go off on people for no appearant reason??

 

As for your statement re: the numbers on pilots versus engineers in Hepac, I will have to take your word. I have no way to confirm nor deny your statement. But, If you care to take a look you'll see that I WAS a paid up member of HEPAC despite me belief that the main interests being addressed were those of pilots.

 

Now as I stated, I've been in this racket for 38 years. And the reason I don't wish to get involved with a driver's association is because of just that. It's a drivers association. Even out in the field working side by side with the driver's the ONLY concern the driver has ever had was himself. He didn't give a shyte that I worked all night to get his machine ready to go. He woke me up to tell him what I did because he too was to God Damned lazy and self centred to read the logbook! It's always been an us scenario in this business. Never a we. Always will be until venus aligns with my anus and an AME association is successful in getting a coalition of crusty cantankerous engineers that have enough support to stop everything long enough to scare the shyte outa the drivers and owners.

 

Until that time, we'll go it on our own. College of Pilots, Hepac, or whatever. Who give s a shyte?? It's just a bunch of self centred insecure driver's looking after themselves! Don't expect us AME's to give a shyte nor get behind what any of you are doing.

 

Here's a piece of advice for all you drivers. Wanna impress us engineers? Shut The fugg up and drive the machine. If we want anything else from you, we'll ask. Even though we know we ain't ever gonna get it!!

 

As for CAMC, I looked at that oragization and it has been most successful in denigrating the AME rather then in furthering the AM. Have a look at the members and directors of that association! Again, NOTHING for the AME. Military and owners. The directionthat CAMC is headed is the same direction and goals that the CBAA is at now. And AME's have no use for it!

 

As for this new college thingy, I don't care what you driver's call it, you guys are STILL gonna get steered regardless what label you stick on your little boys club!!

 

As for AME's there are 12,000 in Canada. I 'm not sure how many drivers there are, and I don't care. They pump them outa the flying schools by the truckload yearly! A dime a dozen is too much so what does it matter? What matters is the number of drivers and engineers that are working.

 

Now I'm off to get more bananas. That monkey I'm training to operate my machine eats alot!!

 

I also was a paid up member of HEPAC. While it saddened me to see it go under it did not surprise me. Over the years I have seen many attempts to organize the industry. None have really worked out. I have reached the 'reluctant conclusion' that if people want a fair wage, good working conditions, protection, benefits, etc, they must be in a union. I know, I know, but hear me out!! I spent 5 years with the old CPAir in a union shop. Yes, I admit there were sometimes problems with a few of the lazy members, but that was a rarity. You always knew what payscale you were in and there was no "backroom deals" Pay increase were automatic and depended what grade you were which depended on time with the company AND HAVING PASSED THE REQUIRED EXAMS TO QUALIFY FOR THE NEXT GRADE. All benefits paid for, all stat. holidays paid for. all required clothing paid for, all type course. paid for. In 5 years I received complete airframe and powerplant courses on 747, 737, 727, and DC-8 which were all recognized by MOT and added to my AME licence.

Now onto a non-union shop. I spent 3 years with South African Airways attached to the F.O.A.M. department (Foreign Operators, Aircraft Maintenance) We looked after all foreign scheduled commercial aircraft entering South Africa. A stark contrast to a union setting. Advancement within the company was directly dependant on your department heads recomendation. Nothing else!! It was pathetic to see my workmates and fellow AMEs' scrambling over each other every morning to have "Mr. Smiths" tea ready for him as he entered his office every morning. Benefits only partially paid for and then they were very few and far between. A minimal clothing allowance. Training only for the favored few, and a salary that would barely pay the bills.

 

BR, While what you say about our aircrew bretheren seems a little harsh, you are pretty much right on the mark with the exception of a small minority of Pilots. Most are self centered prima- donas whos' only thoughts are for themselves. For those Pilots who know me, you knew you were in the minority if I said good morning to you, the rest were only tolerated.

No, I don't think a Professional Pilots Association will ever work in Canada. To many 'individuals'

To many backstabbers, to many drug users, (think not?? Look closely) When was the last time you saw a random drug test in the field? In 50 years, I've NEVER seen one. I might add, the same applies to Engineers. They will never be organized for the same reasons as Pilots. Most are so shyte scared of their employer they would rather slit their throats than upset the employer!! (think yellow 212s').

Well, that's enough venting for now. time for a wee dram or two. Standby for the next volume. As I said, they can not get me now and have I got some stories for you!!!

 

Best Regards

John W. Nixon

[splitpin]

Now, it looks like it's possible that they aren't going to regulate at all -- just have everyone voluntarily adopt a FRMS... or not.

 

Anyone who has been involved in ANY workforce for more tha six minutes knows that won't work. Whatever bright spark that thought up those "rules' should have his effing head examined!! What a bunch of crap!! No thought given to peer pressure, monetery reward (IF GIVEN!!) plus the fact that most employees in this business would not admit they are tired, they would rather kill a bunch of people. I can hear it now!! Where is Billy?? Billy had to go back to his tent. Why?? He is tired!! Yeah right. frms rules.

Anyone who thinks 'frms' will work has their cranium inserted so far up their fundemental orifice they are looking at the world between their teeth!!

Best Regards

John W. Nixon

[splitpin]

Every SINGLE active helicopter company I know of has Meat servo's outnumbering wrenches almost 2 to 1!

It took me a few minutes to tie "Meat Servo" and "Pilot" together. Generally speaking, says it all. :up: :up:

Best Regards

John W. Nixon

[CD]

I guess that's maybe why they decided to withdraw the proposals and not bother with AME duty times...

[splitpin]

I guess that's maybe why they decided to withdraw the proposals and not bother with AME duty times...

 

You are right CD. My comment was uncalled for and out of line, and for that I am sorry.

Best Regards

John W. Nixon

[dimit]

Bullet.

 

What you say about AME workload and conditions is the obvious truth. Unfortunately your vitriolic diatribe against pilots diminishes your arguments. We're not all the arrogant narcisists you describe, just as (truth be told) not all engineers are hardworking, underpaid, unacknowledged geniuses.

 

You may want to exercise some care when using a gigantic brush to spread your vehemence: it may splash back and then you're the one who ends up smelling like the Husky washroom in Wabasca.

 

I'd like to see AMEs get duty time limitations for 2 reasons: 1/ No one should have to work the insane shifts that I've seen some wrenches pulling; and 2/ My daughter's father's tush isn't safe in the machine after one of those insane shifts. Other than starting a union, what can us line workers do to forward this cause? Anyone know who we can write to? Let's start a letter writing campaign right here and now and make that happen!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Dick

[Guest Bullet Remington]

Bullet.

 

What you say about AME workload and conditions is the obvious truth. Unfortunately your vitriolic diatribe against pilots diminishes your arguments. We're not all the arrogant narcisists you describe, just as (truth be told) not all engineers are hardworking, underpaid, unacknowledged geniuses.

 

You may want to exercise some care when using a gigantic brush to spread your vehemence: it may splash back and then you're the one who ends up smelling like the Husky washroom in Wabasca.

 

I'd like to see AMEs get duty time limitations for 2 reasons: 1/ No one should have to work the insane shifts that I've seen some wrenches pulling; and 2/ My daughter's father's tush isn't safe in the machine after one of those insane shifts. Other than starting a union, what can us line workers do to forward this cause? Anyone know who we can write to? Let's start a letter writing campaign right here and now and make that happen!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Dick

 

Dick:

I never inferred that all pilots were..well Dicks!! I did say I believe that all pilots have handles with which they can be steered. I don't believe I have to elaborate on that!!

 

As for anything splashing back on me, ya really think that after 38 years I give a running biach slap what any body cares of me?? I don't give shyte one way ot the other. It's like I stated, MOST drivers don't get it. MOSt engineers don't really give a crap what the driver has to say about them or much else. IF I'm talking to a driver I want to hear how the machine flew, what he thinks is wrong and why. Then I want him to go away. As do most drivers.

 

Just because a driver drives a machine doesn't mean thay know how the machine works. For that matter, just because I have a driver's license doesn't mean that I know how to drive your particluar model of machine. I stick to the mechanics, the driver should stick to driving. I don't want to hear him trying to explain his theroies on hydraulics nor any other mechanical item, I don't want to hear how he COULD run the company better then the owners, and I don't want to hear how he is the greatest thing to happen to flying since Chuck Yager or Igor Sikorski. Engineers don't give a crap. We just care about getting the machine and the driver through the contract and getting the **** outa the bush. Period.

 

And I'm NOT trying to spread my vehemence ( that's your spelling, is that correct?? ) I'm just telling you how the engineer sees it. You don't have to like it, BUT this position is taken by WAY more engineers ( or mechanics if it makes you feel better) then you can grasp. If you think the way I expressed my self diminishes my stance, you are demonstrating your intelligence and I don't have to qualify what you implied now, do I? It doesn't matter really, how you say it, Manure is still crap, or shyte, or dung. Whatever way you want to say it, it's the same.

 

I once worked with a company that utilized a Helli -tack crew. One of the young fellas wanted to be a driver and came to me for advise. Five years later I'm out on a fire with a different company and the SAME highly experienced person shows up and decides to give me lessons in helicopter maintenance and operations. I'm still missing that boot!!

 

On a different ocassion, I worked along side a driver and engineer from a different company located up around Athabaska. The engineer was always smiling, listening intently when ever his driver spoke and always agreed with him. calling him Buddy. I made a comment about how rare it was that a driver and mech got along so, well. The mech replied, "Well, I tried insulting him, but he always though I was trying to start a conversation. I realized that if he wasn't smart enough to know when he was being insulted, I'd better pacify him just in case there were other important things he didn't under stand."It seemed that this engineer had a full understanding and control of his driver. The mech had hold of the driver's handles and was steering him through the contract. The driver was blissfully unaware of what was going on!!

 

As for a letter writing compaign that's a great idea! SERIOUSLY. But after seeing the mass out pouring of support for Hepac, and the anti-limitation rallying by the owners group, and to an extent by the engineers themselves, the last time there was an attempt by CAMAC to implement the limitation, I wish you all the best of luck. It will be shuffled off by TCCA into the SMS fiasco like the rest of the legislated items. While many feel that the SMS and FRMS will handle these items it won't!! Remember back when the CARS were first implemented and the Old E & I Manual was shiffled out and buried. The Cars were touted as the best this for avaiation since sliced bread. It's been around 18 years now and I'm still wanting for all the smooth sailing that the CARs were supposed to bring.

 

I don't see that happening in the near future. As for your daughter's father having his butt in a machine, lookit, IF your engineer worked all night, 1) Check the book to see what he did, if you don't find anything, look on the seat in your office for a hand-over note, read it and go through it! AFTER you read it and before you wake him up, 2) - Look the machine over, especially where he worked and make sure everything is safetied and there is no FOD in the area. Now the engineer won't like a pilot checking his work, he'd rather have somebody that knows what they are doing, like another engineer do it. BUT given that there isn't another mechanic around nor awake at that time of day, He'll tolerate a driver doing. IF you find something wrong or something you don't understand, Wake him up. yeah he'll be be pissed bu't despite his fuming and snarling, he'll be happy that you cared enough to check. Just don't expect him to tell ya!

 

Now you got, what was it you said? 3000 hours and nine years?? Pfffft. Go get a vacuum and clean your mess outa the cockpit, when you're done that get a bucket, some hot water and soap and clean down the tail boom. And try and stay busy and out of the engineers way! He has things to fix if you want to keep flying his machine and earn a living!!