U.s Flight Schools In Canada

[rotorheadrob]

How many sales men do these guys have?

 

Man I'm getting tired of listening to thier !@#$!

 

shuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuup!

 

ROB

[dimit]

Fly Safe,

 

I know you're trying to make a coherent argument, and as you say, you gotta start with the facts:

 

Robinson builds the R22.

Robertson builds the screwdriver.

Roberson is... Billy-the-Kid Jr.?

 

Could you cite your reference for the claim that full-on autos are not allowed in the Robinson R22? Just curious...

 

Thanks, and keep up the good work!

 

Dick

[Full On]

Now this is what I’m talking about, Pilot friends on both sides discussing pros and cons of “Flight Training” without the bashing of one particular company or individual. This company may stay or not the fact is they are the first and if it wasn’t them it would have been someone else. This thread should stay around because it is now going to be an issue for a long, long time. Since this company did bring in a 300 CBI the discussion should be again the differences between it and the R22. Bloggers come and go and there are new training pilots entering the field everyday. Every time it is discussed new info emerges which improves training.

I put forth 10 questions, opinion, etc to get it rolling and on subject. The replies, for the most part have been great and not demeaning. However, most are opinions and preferences and NOT FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR CASE. With this in mind I’ll start with my take on the question with the first reply of, R22 the “lesser training quality aircraft”. Not knowing Canadian rules I can only state the U.S. rules. But Canada usually follows FAA.

TOA, Where I’m from, back in 1977, because of political reasons on the field to close down, I needed a place to tie my aircraft down. Mr. Roberson allowed me to do so in front of his 50X60 ft run down hanger. I was able to watch the development of the R22.

Mr. Roberson explained to me his concept “I want to develop a helicopter that is inexpensive, affordable to the average pilot and it being cheap enough that it would be considered a “Throw away”. He did exactly and did real well for himself. His complex now is about 1/8 of the whole field. In 1979 the R22 fulfilled his dreams! (Projected price was $12,999 went to $14,500 but finally sold somewhere around 30k?) Many consider it a “Throw Away” because at 2,000 it must be sent back to the factory and completely re-built at a cost of over $100,000. A 300 CBI NOTHING comes due till 4,000 hours except engine and bearing repacks. That is 2 of R22 lifetimes!

The 300 CBI (269 series) was built for the military and has the lowest operational cost of ALL trainers. It is also has the safest and lowest fatality and injury rate. In 2002 it logged over 200,000 without a single fatality or serious injury. Experts and statistics rank the 300CBI the safest and best piston training aircraft in the world.

The R22 has one of the worst safety records and one of the highest fatality and injury rates. Just a very few years ago the FAA considered grounding the entire fleet. FAA mandates that instructors that teach the R22 MUST go to the factory for training. (See; 14 CFR Part 61 R22 then backgrounds) It is the ONLY helicopter certified that has this requirement. In the R22 POH there are SEVERAL disclaimers and they all end with “May be fatal or cause serious injury”.

In training there is great emphasis on emergencies. That’s why the practice of auto rotation, stuck pedal etc…right? Along with other flight restrictions the R22 can NOT do FULL DOWN. What good are autos if you can’t practice taking to the ground?

Because of the above mentioned on the R22, Roberson has been sued many times. Do you inform your new students the risk associated with flying the R22 over other choices? I believe in not doing so you many run the risk of a law suit. Explain how you can consider to have the most complete training offered if students can not practice flight maneuvers that others ARE doing in other aircraft?

Because of these few informational FACTS, and there are many more, is why I said the “R22 is the lesser quality training aircraft”.

 

Fly Safe

 

This Post was started to let all the flight school operators in Canada know what is happening to the Canadian flight school market. From all the calls and pm's I have recieved word is getting out and this FAA flight school attempting to operate in Canada is not all that popular in everyones eyes. If you would like to start a post on your 10 questions then start another post. Your attempt to suck up to the readers and change the reasoning of this post to try to make yourself seem like a conerned instructor are not working.

 

You also did a, how did twinkieguy put it, "classy" representation of Frank Robertson's name by calling him Roberson. I'm sure that made Frank shake in his boots.

 

I have a question for the auhor of the mountain flying Book that TG is going on about. How does one accumulate 25,000 hours in a 20 year period? That is an icredible feat I must say. Must have done a lot of time building with friends i guess. Do the math... this guy was busy.

 

Another erroneous fact about the R22 not able to do autorotations or stuck pedals to the ground are a little off. I wonder what you would call the autos that we do to the ground at an area which is 4000'ASL.

 

I have flight trained in 47's, 300's and R22's I know the cost of operating these machines. My question to the FAA operator is what are you skimpping on, because there is no profits in the rates that you are using if you are operating fair. Something is is being neglected, mainrtenance, crew pay, or something. Tell us how you do it.

 

And finally you are not the only school who rents there helicopters to graduates, we do as well, with an efficient safety screening program we know the pilots who take our machines out will be safe. Although we find that graduates who want to build time would rather go with an instructor to learn more instead of flogging around making silly mistakes and creating bad habits.

 

I may get some grief for the TwinkieGuy call but I think Frank ROBERTSON would appreciate it.

 

Cheers

 

PRJB

 

 

[Mark_]

I don't think that we'll hear much more from the salesmen...the message from the general public here is loud and clear.

 

Mark.

[Helilog56]

This Post was started to let all the flight school operators in Canada know what is happening to the Canadian flight school market. From all the calls and pm's I have recieved word is getting out and this FAA flight school attempting to operate in Canada is not all that popular in everyones eyes. If you would like to start a post on your 10 questions then start another post. Your attempt to suck up to the readers and change the reasoning of this post to try to make yourself seem like a conerned instructor are not working.

 

You also did a, how did twinkieguy put it, "classy" representation of Frank Robertson's name by calling him Roberson. I'm sure that made Frank shake in his boots.

 

I have a question for the auhor of the mountain flying Book that TG is going on about. How does one accumulate 25,000 hours in a 20 year period? That is an icredible feat I must say. Must have done a lot of time building with friends i guess. Do the math... this guy was busy.

 

Another erroneous fact about the R22 not able to do autorotations or stuck pedals to the ground are a little off. I wonder what you would call the autos that we do to the ground at an area which is 4000'ASL.

 

I have flight trained in 47's, 300's and R22's I know the cost of operating these machines. My question to the FAA operator is what are you skimpping on, because there is no profits in the rates that you are using if you are operating fair. Something is is being neglected, mainrtenance, crew pay, or something. Tell us how you do it.

 

And finally you are not the only school who rents there helicopters to graduates, we do as well, with an efficient safety screening program we know the pilots who take our machines out will be safe. Although we find that graduates who want to build time would rather go with an instructor to learn more instead of flogging around making silly mistakes and creating bad habits.

 

I may get some grief for the TwinkieGuy call but I think Frank ROBERTSON would appreciate it.

 

Cheers

 

PRJB

 

Thanks for posting the "lack" of education, that "flysafe" seems to display in regards to the helicopter industry in general.

We do try to "humour those", that think they "know " the industry!!!

 

Perhaps he should "research" the facts a bit better?

 

It would make for a better "debate"??!!

 

This is not a "argument".....but merely the "facts" !!!!

[Elan Head]

OK everyone, this thread seems to have exhausted its usefulness and I don't see it going anywhere positive from here. So, I'm going to close it. Feel free to discuss other training topics in separate threads.

 

Elan