Long Lining?

[oil pressure]

some aircraft types and manufaturers flight manuals are different. the bell 205 for instance most certainly has the height velocity limitations in sect. 1 (limitations) its even called "height velocity limitations" and the desciption and chart is in sect. 1 as well. I agree with all said except that height velocity is not a limitation, why is it indeed in the limitations section on that particular type?

[oil pressure]

in addition, to continue on the bell 205 example, it has an external cargo supplement that actually states, " the height velocity diagram is not a limitation for external cargo operation under an appropriate operating cetificate" guess thats the way we can long line in a 205

[Phil Croucher]

"Engines aren't the biggest elephant in the room...."

 

Absolutely. This is an old debate, but having two engines didn't help the guys in the S-92 off Newfoundland or the machines that went down just afterwards in the North Sea.

 

However, we do live in a litigious age.... Even though the avoid curve is not in the limitations section, I think it's worth pointing out that one definition of a jury is 12 people who are not smart enough to get out of it . These are the people who may be judging you and may not appreciate the subtle difference between the various sections of the POH. To them, just because you are associated with helicopters means you are a) rich and insured.

 

This is just one area where we grease the wheels of the industry for which we don't get paid nearly enough....

 

In answer to the last post, the 117's H/V curve also moves into the Limitations section once you get into high density seating.

 

Phil

[oil pressure]

I know several people who have walked away from engine failures in the hover with a long line on. The helicopters didn't always fair well mind you but it isnt the death sentence you make it out to be...

 

Alot of people seem to think the height velocity diagram is a limit that cannot be exceeded which is of course not true. We do many things besides long lining that bring us into the shaded area and the point of this graph is to make sure we are aware of the added risk and don't accumulate it uneccessarily.

 

Why do we need more laws to tell us what we can and cannot do? Personally I feel perfectly safe with a longline on in a single engine machine. Its certainly more dificult and there is added risk, but that cannot be avoided all the time. Besides, I don't think adding a second engine is going to do alot to increase the safety margin. There aren't alot of helicopters, and almost no intermediates that will hover with a gross weight load on one engine. It just increases the cost to the operator, which increases the cost to the customer, which results in less flying.

 

Statistically the safest helicopter in the world is still a single engine 206b.

i would say adding a second engine very much increases the safety margin when long lining in the event of an eng. failure. as vortex indicated and is quite right engines just dont quit that often. but since we are on the topic of height velocity and engine failures you have to remember that when you are long lining 99% of the time you are in an empty heli. with just gas and you. for eaxample, take a bell 212, with the proper pilot training and understanding of the tq guage and anticipated single eng. tq availability, particlarily with -3b engs, if you have a line long enough to give you some canopy clearance in the event of an eng. failure you could most certainly fly away safely and land. if i want the job to be easier, give me a 205, if ime worried about safety margin for a rare eng. failure, ille take a 212 any day

[AH1]

Engine failures are debated as theoretical events and dismissed with statistics-except to those of us who have had an engine failure. It then becomes the primariy consideration in whatever you do for the rest of your life.

[oil pressure]

Engine failures are debated as theoretical events and dismissed with statistics-except to those of us who have had an engine failure. It then becomes the primariy consideration in whatever you do for the rest of your life.

you are a wise person AH1, i have had said event myself and to this day will take a little more added work load happily and take a 212 over a very capable 205 for about any kind of medium work....does stick in your mind for sure.....well said!

[wcobra]

... It then becomes the primariy consideration in whatever you do for the rest of your life.

 

Very wise words indeed!!!

 

Master....when will I know it is time?

[vortex]

Engine failures are debated as theoretical events and dismissed with statistics-except to those of us who have had an engine failure. It then becomes the primariy consideration in whatever you do for the rest of your life.

I posted those statistics (from memory) so everyone gets to pick their favorite thing to have as their primary consideration.

btw AH1, I've had the failure and I remember the feeling...so I'm comfortable posting the statistics...and moving a drill with one engine.

At least we can train for an engine failure...

[Skids Up]

...you have to remember that when you are long lining 99% of the time you are in an empty heli.

 

Really??

 

I agree that you can get rid of the load in a hurry, but in my experiences, I've got a load on more than 1% of the time. Maybe I'm just slower than average...

[oil pressure]

Really??

 

I agree that you can get rid of the load in a hurry, but in my experiences, I've got a load on more than 1% of the time. Maybe I'm just slower than average...

good grief, i should have explained, i said "with a long enough line that gives you enough, whatever is below you, clearance" i assumed we would get rid of the load initially and then fly away in a fairly empty heli. but i guess the way i worded it i can see your point