Sam Video

[transquebecniece]

Well, well, well. What a debate. Good there’s no hostile fire yet.

 

I wouldn’t feel safe in ANY country that is being used as a “safe haven” by terrorists; they used America as a safe haven, as well. But it took 911 for us to “smarts up” to it. That alone doesn’t make Canada or any country immune from terrorist strikes in their own backyard.

 

To say “History has shown time and again that liberating an oppressed society more often than not leads to an even worse form of oppression down the line” is an unbelievably narrow-minded statement. Look at any formerly communist and/or dictatorship country previously liberated and I’ll think you’ll see they’re far better off now than they were then. These changes don’t happen over night and they depend heavily on a country’s people to have the bravery and the willingness to step up to the plate and effect positive change once the door has been opened for them. America, along with several other countries, has done the dirty work; this is true. And at a high human price. I’m not a war cheerleader by any means. The old Vietnam-era poster, “War is not good for children and other living things” rings true today more than ever. But as a military brat whose U.S. Army father and uncles enlisted voluntarily to defend our country and to serve both in peacetime and war time in foreign countries, I stand by my guns in defense of America’s actions now and always.

 

I despise Hussein and Bin Laden and ALL that they stand for, which is polar opposite of most of Western civilization. They breed hate at a very young age. And no thanks; I don’t want to wait around idly while these lunatics get time to prove to the world whether or not they have weapons of mass destruction. The propensity for it is real. Frankly, I’m elated Hussein is behind bars and for all the people he butchered during his dictatorship; I hope he gets his just reward. As for Bin Laden, I will personally rejoice when he’s captured or killed. You can compare the nitty-gritty of these three lunatics down to the last hair on their heads, but they are no different from Hitler. Their weapons, means and methods may have differed, but their message of hate is one and the same and it’s a message that should not be tolerated nor proliferated.

 

RE: Iraq. Were America’s actions proactive or reactive? I have no doubt it was a bit of both. A moot point now, and as I said before, my country is divided over this war, too---as is most of the UK. However, the tables are turning for the better as I type this very moment. I am excited for a new democracy and what’s happened with the elections in Iraq. Good IS coming out of this already. Yes, the road ahead for the Iraqi people will be tough. Yes, America’s troops and everyone else’s are working on exit plans but all in good time.

 

RE: Dictatorship vs. democracy and Iraq: Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi exiles living in the U.S. who turned out to vote for a new leader for the first time in half a century would disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. I’d encourage you to see this link; there are a number of reports on what’s going on right now. I’m not asking you to change your minds. I’m just asking that you read more. You’ll even see the Kurdish Democratic Party Leader casting his ballot in an effort to effect change for his people. How can that be bad?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/...main/index.html

 

Your last statement, JB, leaves me feeling bad---no, sad---that Canada’s son would verbally beat on her military prowess. How awful that must sound to Canada's enlisted personnel. And I'll be the first to tell you that might doesn't make right all the time. I will follow that up with a brass statement: IF anything happened in or to Canada (again, God forbid), you know who would be there in a heartbeat to support, help and defend in any way possible.

 

Oh man. I need a drink!

[twinstar_ca]

JB, you left out our submarines bought 2nd hand... :down: :down:

[Skidz]

Tqn, what I meant in my statement was that the right conditions must prevail for democracy to be born. "We're gonna liberate you whether you like it or not" has never worked in the past.

 

Anytime one nation invades another, there is bound to be a grass roots movement aginast the invader, no matter how benevolent they may be or seem to be.

[transquebecniece]

You know I love you all dearly. But I have to say that democracy was not crammed down anyone's throats in Iraq. A monster regime was forcibly removed from power, yes. And then countless Iraqis cast their first vote (both here and there) for the first time in 50 years to select a leader of their choosing. From what I saw on the tube no one was forced to vote. People stood in line for hours and hours to vote, despite "grassroot level" threats against them. And they did so gladly. They were smiling, they were happy, they were overjoyed to have the chance to effect change in their own country. None of this would've ever happened with Hussein in power. I cried when I heard many of the voters thanking the American soldiers and Allied troops for their newfound chance at freedom. The right conditions do prevail for democracy to be born.

[jetbox]

TQN, you don't have to worry about hostile fire from this guy, while I disagree with many of your opinions, I still respect them and welcome the oppertunity to debate them some more!! :up:

 

Your last statement, JB, leaves me feeling bad---no, sad---that Canada’s son would verbally beat on her military prowess. How awful that must sound to Canada's enlisted personnel

I'm not criticizing our military personel, it's not their fault our government has neglected them all these years. I think it's safe to say that all Canadians are proud of the men and women that serve in our military. It's just a shame that we haven't invested enough so they don't have to serve abroad with antiquated equipement.

With that being said, if our government decided to send our troops to conduct an operation that I didn't think was justified, I wouldn't support that operation just because our boys and girls are out there fighting and getting killed. There's a difference between supporting the troops and supporting their mission.

 

You're also right about Iraq's democracy emerging after the war being a good thing, it is, really. But let's be honest about why the U.S. chose to give Iraqis a chance at democracy: it's to be able to have an indirect control of their oil and nothing more! There are many other oppressed societies out there that will never have the privilege of being "liberated" by the United States. Why?? They have no natural resource that the U.S. needs badly enough.

 

It doesn't matter who's brother, father, uncle, cousin etc. is enlisted and serving in Iraq. The reason they were sent there was for their country's pure economical gain and nothing else. It's not their fault their government makes decisions to please lobby groups and special interest groups and to please corporations that have "connections" with the White House.

I'll be just as happy as you when Bin Laden and Saddam are gone but I don't think their reasons to commit those terrible attacks are any worse than America's reasons to kill tens of thousands of inocent Iraqis to take control of their oil reserves, one motive is just as despicable as the other!

 

Besides, until Jews and Arabs find a way to get along in the middle east, America will always be at the mercy of those lunatics, long after Bin Laden is gone.

 

Time's up! :up:

 

p.s. I hope I've chosen my words carefully enough not to offend you or anyone else! I enjoy debating opinions but I'm not trying to demean Americans and especially not Americans serving in Iraq.

[Jet B]

I'm just curious how the conversation will go when North Korea or Iran puts a Nuclear weapon in the hands of Osama's nut squad?

 

You can argue all you want about whether the war in Iraq should have or shouldn't have happened, but if the U.S. doesn't stay ahead of the Terrorists, they will get their hands on a nuke, dirty bomb, chemical, or biological weapon, and millions will die rather than a few thousand.

 

If you don't think that Saddam hated America enough to put weapons of mass destruction into the hands of Terrorists if and when he had them, then you are naive'...

 

It's easy to sit on your couch and judge ole' George Bush, but you aren't in his shoes, you don't have 300,000,000 people to try and protect.

 

And that is an opinion from a Canadian.

[transquebecniece]

Well, Jetbox, I'm glad to know you're not radioactive. I wished I'd have been smart enough to say that I am too biased to participate in this debate, but alas, I didn't. And of course you are not criticizing Canada's military personnel, but the comments you make can easily be construed as demoralizing. Or maybe it's just me; I'm an eternal optimist. However, I should hope that you realize, regardless of what equipment a military has, when called on in a time of need, the guys and gals will be equipped to rise up and get the job done simply because they have "it" inside them to do so.

 

Oil, oil, oil. What do you want to hear me say about our objective in Iraq? That it's just about oil? Because I won't. And you can't make me . Not even if you sat on me and gave me a red belly! It goes deeper than that. And I totally understand your disrepect for bureaucratic hypocrisy, but you show me a country with 100% above-the-table politicos without ulterior motives and hidden agendas and I'll show you a **** lie. That government trait is not specific to the U.S.A.

 

Like the rest of the world, I am exhilarated by the transition taking place in Iraq and I won't lie. I'm also waiting for the other shoe to drop. To see the rebuilding continue, to see whomever was voted into office not be assassinated by the thugs that the rest of Iraq wouldn't give the time of day, to be able to see the Iraqi people take the reins and make something good happen. The Iraqi people spoke loud and clear this weekend, not just from Iraq and in the U.S. but in several other countries as well. They have the desire to do all of this and more. I'm just going to hope and pray for the best because that's what I do.

 

As for the comment "it doesn't matter who's serving in Iraq," I have to say that yes it does. Perhaps not to you. But even in this country divided, those troops belong to all of us; they are all of our sons and daughters, whether they are glad to be over there (and thousands of them are) or not.

 

I have enjoyed our debate thus far. You think we, perhaps, should just agree to disagree and call a truce? In the words of Tom Petty, "I won't back down." I can see you that you know the song, too.

 

P.S. BTW, South Korea just today asked America again to look into North Korea's possible nuclear threat. Today. After Iraq's taste of liberty and their abolished fear of a murderous ruler. There are many countries asking for help and America will not only think of our own interests and risks but those of everyone else within target range before any action is taken---if any action is taken at all. What kind of foolish government would we have otherwise?

[transquebecniece]

In all of my ranting and raving and maniacal defense, I didn't even see you pop in there with intelligent words, Jet B. My hat's off to you. An American opinion from a Canadian. Love it! And thank you.

 

No offense to jetbox. Your words are intelligent and I can see you put a lot of thought into them. We just march to a different drummer methinks.

[jetbox]

I'm just curious how the conversation will go when North Korea or Iran puts a Nuclear weapon in the hands of Osama's nut squad?

Thanks Jet B, you just proved my point! The White House said all along that the war in Iraq was about weapons of mass destruction. They knew Iraq didn't have that capability, they knew Iran might have that capability and they knew North Korea has that capability, yet they invaded the country with the least potential of nuclear threat but with the most oil!! What other conclusion can we draw??

I totally understand your disrepect for bureaucratic hypocrisy, but you show me a country with 100% above-the-table politicos without ulterior motives and hidden agendas and I'll show you a **** lie. That government trait is not specific to the U.S.A.

You're right about that TQN, every developped democracy is controlled by lobby groups and corporations, not just the U.S. And rest assured that many Canadian government actions (or sometimes inactions) irritate me a lot more than yours does, this debate just happens to be about American foreign policy that's all.

And yes, I will agree to disagree with no hard feelings whatsoever! :up: That's the beauty of this and other forums (and certainly a benefit of living in a democracy), we can exchange ideas freely!

 

A most enjoyable debate indeed!!!! :up: :up: :up:

[transquebecniece]

Hey, radioactive boy! I promised two wise and dear Forum friends that today I would 1) Adopt a "hot ****!" attitude and 2) Enjoy the sunnier side of life. It is, afterall, Monday. Don't know about you but I have enough crap to contend with on Mondays . So today, on the topic of war and politics, I say "Hot ****!" and "You have a Wonderful Day!" (And I really, really mean that!) :up:

 

(Tomorrow might be another story, however. ) Rock on!