214 Co-jo On Here?

[R22Captain]

hey zazu and HBG.

Who have you/are you working for? PM if you prefer. Thanks :hide:

[Zazu]

R-22

 

worked for Trans - West the day I passed my written, must be 7 years ago or somewhat. Been working for Gemini Helicopters for 3 seasons now. You do the math in between. Ups and downs a given but all smiles now

 

Zazu

[Rotorboy2]

R22,

 

Zazu and I both worked at Transwest during the same time period as co-jos. He mentions some very good points but I'd like to re-iterate a few myself:

 

1) If you get hired, understand one thing: you are a co-pilot. You will NEVER be pulling turns off the hill from the left seat (or the right for that fact). One guy who was trying out as co-jo actually asked when he was going to get to 'try long-lining'... he didn't last.

 

2) The pay is shite. Every 214 logging operator knows there are dozens of guys waiting to jump in the right seat for some experience. The pay reflects that. You will work long, hard hours for very little pay. Be prepared to be eating the 'cheap' macaroni and cheese (and no wieners either) for a long time.

 

3) There are great captains and not-so-great captains. Some guys are great instructors and make great efforts to help the newbie co-jo out while other guys just yell at you. Don't take it personally.

 

4) Keep in mind that your 214 time really doesn't mean jack if you don't have the endorsement. Some of that time can be counted as 'training' and therefore can be counted against your total time. Most operators won't recognize that time, however.

 

Overall, I am glad I went the 'co-jo' route but if I had to do it over, I'd probably try other avenues. It did give me a fair bit of stick time and did allow me to hone my skills somewhat but it is alot (I mean ALOT) of work, little pay and a hard slog.

 

Good luck!

[Skidz]

Could some of you guys de-mystify the co-jo's role in heli-logging ?

 

My understanding was the co-jo's primary role was to keep his face on the guages while the captain has his head out the window and to let him know if he's close to or over-torquing or over-temping.

 

I assume all the other #### work goes to the co-jo as well (fuelling, laying out lines, etc.).

 

Could you give an example of "a day in the life of a co-jo" ?

 

Rotorboy, you say that without the endorsement, co-joing on the 214 is worthless in the end. Could you clarify that ?

 

Thanks !

[Rotorboy2]

Skidz,

 

You are primarily correct regarding the co-jo's role. Usually the co-jo holds the collective at 100% torque (or equivilant), not just watching the torque gauge. The captain pulls power and the co-jo applies resistance as the torque approaches the top end. The co-jo also records the weights of the turns and records if chokers were taken up on the empty run back up the hill (if no support machine is used).

 

Fueling and such is the co-jo's responsibility as well. In addition, many times the co-jo must also assist the engineer at the end of the day (because bouncing around for 8 hours isn't enough). The pilot and co-jo usually washed the tailboom every day, but the windows, interior and greasing was usually the co-jo's job.

 

Let's make one thing clear...

The only reason a second pilot is in a machine such as the 214 on logging operations is for insurance purposes only... someone must be watching the gauges at all times. The company is not concerned with 'training up' low time pilots for future transition to the left seat... that simply doesn't happen.

 

The positive side is that the co-jo usually gets the ferry flights. This means both the short 5-10 minute hops to and from the jobsite everyday as well as the longer flights to and from the hanger. This is where the co-jo can build hours.

 

But no, if you are not endorsed on type, you cannot officially log the time. I believe it is the same for any helicopter type... and the heli-logging operations know this. They do not hand out endorsements when you walk in the door. One guy I worked with was there almost 3 years before finally getting the endorsement... and the ink wasn't even dry before he quit and got a 'real job' flying a JetRanger.

 

Now without the endorsement you can count some of the time as training but there is a maximum to that as well. Unfortunately, I've spoken to various people, including TC personnel, and no one seems to have a definitive answer.

 

I wouldn't say that the time a co-jo spends in the cockpit is 'worthless'... quite the opposite. I learned alot about flying, especially in poor weather, from my time as a co-jo. I also got a fair bit of x-country time, including trip planning and fuel stops. I also gained alot of experience in radio operations and learned about fire fighting procedures while we were fighting fires.

 

I just want to make clear that if a low-timer expects he/she can log all their time as a co-jo as official time, then that is incorrect. I made that mistake... and I was none-too-happy when I was told that the majority of that time was not loggable.

[Skidz]

So how many hours do you log vs. hours worked ? Do you usually work with the same pilot and AME all the time ?

 

You mentioned in your previous post that if you had to do it all over again, you would go another route. In hindsight, what would you have done differently ?

[Helilog56]

Let's make one thing clear...

The only reason a second pilot is in a machine such as the 214 on logging operations is for insurance purposes only... someone must be watching the gauges at all times.

Just a clarification here on that statement. The "reason" that there is a pilot in the right seat of a 214 is because, it is "not" cetified for left seat pilot in command.

Left seat cetification was (and is) only applicable to 204, 205, and 212. My point being, that if an operator has a pilot that is not endorsed sitting full time in the PIC seat ( and probably not PPC'd), they are not following their O.C. requirements as stated in CARS.

Could be a big issue if something should go wrong with an unqualified pilot sitting PIC....would not want to see what the insurance underwriter would say about that :shock:

[Rotorboy2]

Helilog,

 

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. I was told it was due to insurance purposes.

 

During my time there they did have a ship go down (fuel control failed). The co-jo was on his first tour, fresh out of flight school.

 

I wonder what they told the insurance company???

[helidude]

Rotorboy,

The only reason a second pilot is in a machine such as the 214 on logging operations is for insurance purposes only... someone must be watching the gauges at all times.

 

Is the 214 certified as a dual pilot only A/C or do the insurance companies specifically require a second pilot??

How is the 214 logging different than the 212 logging? 212's don't have a co-jo?!

[helidude]

Nevermind, I should've read the rest of the thread before posting.