Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Batmat

Flying With Doors Off

Recommended Posts

Whats everybodys thoughts about flying a 206, AS350 etc with doors off while passengers in back are doing say photo flights, hose drops on fire ops without class "D" harness setup.

Now with the doors off I feel this is pretty hard to not call this a class "D" operation if you compare this to regulations governing window washing, tower climbing etc. I do not believe that the normal seat belts installed in any of the aircraft I am familiar with could qualify as class "D" equipment.

I have done enough of this over the years and have come to the conclusion that it going to be a proper safety harness or the doors are going to stay on. cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me it depends what they are doing. Normally if its something that has them hanging out the side (ie cone sampling, netgunning, filming etc.) they need the added mobility of a proper harness anyway since it would be hard to do their job constrained to a normal seatbelt. The only situation that comes to mind for me to fly doors off for a passenger without needing to hang out the side, is doing hover exits and some camera work and as long as they aren't leaning out, I think a normal seatbelt is adequate. I don't wear a harness if I pull the door to longline either. Maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of anyone falling out before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't wear a harness if I pull the door to longline either. Maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of anyone falling out before.

 

This coupled with your screen name is kinda funny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me it depends what they are doing. Normally if its something that has them hanging out the side (ie cone sampling, netgunning, filming etc.) they need the added mobility of a proper harness anyway since it would be hard to do their job constrained to a normal seatbelt. The only situation that comes to mind for me to fly doors off for a passenger without needing to hang out the side, is doing hover exits and some camera work and as long as they aren't leaning out, I think a normal seatbelt is adequate. I don't wear a harness if I pull the door to longline either. Maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of anyone falling out before.

 

 

I have always done the same, but after further thought about this practice a few questions remain. A standard seat a/c belt release does not have the same fail safe as an approved safety harness, The ground is just as hard falling 1000' from a jetranger as from the CN tower.

I wonder what transports view is on this? How would the courts look at this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a set of good questions. I would like to see some comments on what people consider might qualify as an acceptable harness and also what you would attach it to in different types of aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

605.23 An aircraft may be operated without being equipped in accordance with Section 605.22 in respect of the following persons if a restraint system that is secured to the primary structure of the aircraft is provided for each person who is

 

(a) carried on a stretcher or in an incubator or other similar device;

 

(B) carried for the purpose of parachuting from the aircraft; or

 

© required to work in the vicinity of an opening in the aircraft structure

 

 

so from this, i would surmise that photography missions, etc. qualify as "work in the vicinity" of an opening in the a/c structure. Interesting point and another good thread...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the past I've put a single wrap of electrical tape around the seat belt buckle to secure it against inadvertent release

 

For a harness attachment point I prefer clipping into a seat belt attachment point, but that's often not possible, or the attachment point isn't designed for lateral loading. In that case I secure a seat belt by taping the buckle closed and taping or tying the loose ends, and clip the harness lanyard into that. I want all attachment links to be locking, and the equipment operator needs a knife or seat belt cutter readily available.

 

Cheers,

 

DM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seat and Safety Belt Requirements

 

605.22 (1) Subject to subsection 605.23, no person shall operate an aircraft other than a balloon unless it is equipped with a seat and safety belt for each person on board the aircraft other than an infant.

 

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person operating an aircraft that was type-certificated with a safety belt designed for two persons.

 

(3) A safety belt referred to in subsection (1) shall include a latching device of the metal-to-metal type.

 

 

Restraint System Requirements

 

605.23 An aircraft may be operated without being equipped in accordance with Section 605.22 in respect of the following persons if a restraint system that is secured to the primary structure of the aircraft is provided for each person who is

 

a) carried on a stretcher or in an incubator or other similar device;

 

B) carried for the purpose of parachuting from the aircraft; or

 

c) required to work in the vicinity of an opening in the aircraft structure.

 

 

I've had this discussion with a pilot that I cross shifted with. He was all fired up because some of us were doing photo flights, doors open with no harness. Seat belts as required, instructed to remain in their seats and not move/or lean outboard.

 

Considering these regs, as long as they have seats and are wearing seat belt, no harness is required. That being said I'd interpret it as you can remove the seats and/or have someone not wear a seatbelt as long as a "restraint system that is secured to the primary structure of the aircraft is provided.......". Yes that's right.....PROVIDED! It doesn't even require the person to utilize the restraint system, just provide it.

 

Anybody know of any further regulations that would supersede these?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

read down further....they always put the "actual" rule somewhere not obvious.....silly people who write the cars

 

but interesting point on the wording of "provided"!

 

 

General Use of Safety Belts and Restraint Systems

 

605.25 (1) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall direct all of the persons on board the aircraft to fasten safety belts

 

(a) during movement of the aircraft on the surface;

 

(B) during take-off and landing; and

 

© at any time during flight that the pilot-in-command considers it necessary that safety belts be fastened.

 

(2) The directions referred to in subsection (1) also apply to the use of the following restraint systems:

 

(a) a child restraint system;

 

(B) a restraint system used by a person who is engaged in parachute descents; and

 

© a restraint system used by a person when working in the vicinity of an opening in the aircraft structure.

 

pretty sure these means flying with door off snapping pics ;) Once I get a guy hangin out the door with a camera in hand, he isn't talking that harness off for the whole flight.

 

 

ummm why is this site becoming useful? :blink:

haha

another good thread :up:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the past I've put a single wrap of electrical tape around the seat belt buckle to secure it against inadvertent release

 

For a harness attachment point I prefer clipping into a seat belt attachment point, but that's often not possible, or the attachment point isn't designed for lateral loading. In that case I secure a seat belt by taping the buckle closed and taping or tying the loose ends, and clip the harness lanyard into that. I want all attachment links to be locking, and the equipment operator needs a knife or seat belt cutter readily available.

 

Cheers,

 

DM

 

Yes I have used the tape around the seat belt trick on the flip up style and I feel comfortable with that but our new aircraft have the spin style release buckle, we have made a plastic plug that is inserted into the buckle to prevent it from unintentional release, But always the but... what happens if you have and accident and the poor smuck is unable to release this home grown lock? you are screwed..

This is one of those practices we have been doing for so long and nothing bad has happened we feel that it must be a safe enough procedure so we continue doing this.

What bothers me is when you measure this against other standards that other industries use example: tower service, window washing, construction etc this practice does not ever come close to their safety standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...