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Flying With Doors Off

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Why don't you educate yourself on the CARS MMike, maybe try and decipher Flight and Duty times for example. Good Luck!

 

I am not totally ignorant of them...but obviously i'm not expert.

 

But now this raises another question.....(and yes I acknowledge that I'm reaching here)

 

If the CARs are truly that indecipherable, then isn't it unfair to ask pilots to engage in activities where the goalposts can be moved on them? I mean this is a potential sketchy operation no? Hanging out of a flying helicopter? If there are no clear rules specifying what needs to happen for safe operation, then don't pilots...or HAI/HAC need to sound a rallying cry to get that fixed?

 

As a pilot, it's your *** on the line if something goes pear-shaped isn't it? So if you are unsure if you are complying with the regs, then is it wise to to carry out the mission?

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I am not totally ignorant of them...but obviously i'm not expert.

 

But now this raises another question.....(and yes I acknowledge that I'm reaching here)

 

If the CARs are truly that indecipherable, then isn't it unfair to ask pilots to engage in activities where the goalposts can be moved on them? I mean this is a potential sketchy operation no? Hanging out of a flying helicopter? If there are no clear rules specifying what needs to happen for safe operation, then don't pilots...or HAI/HAC need to sound a rallying cry to get that fixed?

 

As a pilot, it's your *** on the line if something goes pear-shaped isn't it? So if you are unsure if you are complying with the regs, then is it wise to to carry out the mission?

Its like saying "Sex with a condom has too many risks, best to not do it all together." Try getting the pilots on that bandwagon, ain't gonna happen.

 

the Duke

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Its like saying "Sex with a condom has too many risks, best to not do it all together." Try getting the pilots on that bandwagon, ain't gonna happen.

 

the Duke

 

I was just going to say actually.....if at the end of the day, it's just a case of "####'s gotta get done", then so be it. Because a rope through the belt loops of your levi's would probably be safe(ish) enough in reality. (And no I'm not volunteering to try it out).

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of CYA than anything.

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MMike,

 

I can see how it looks staight forward: "Know thy regulations", but the CARS are not only relatively opaque, they are also just the start.

 

Regulations and standards I need to comply with: CARS, AIM, COM, FM, Contrails x 4 versions, company SOPs, WHMIS, TDG Act, IATA and/or ICAO TDG rules and when each applies, AB/BC/SK/MB/ON Forestry rules, Radio Operators whatever, and I've probably forgotten a couple of others. Several thousand pages of legistlation, rules, regulations, guidelines, suggestions, Thou Shalts, Thou Shalt Nots, and so forth. You get the picture. Most of us strive for complete compliance but it can be a challenge.

 

Cheers,

 

DM

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There are clear parts of the CARS that apply to us....seatbelts on during landing and taking off...in between... you don't need to wear them. Almost sounds like an Air Canada briefing..which leads me to my point. Most of the CARS stuff to with regard to this topic is focused on the fixed wing stuff....you'll never see a CARS Aerial work reg state that "a full wrap of electrical tape shall be wrapped around the release portion of the seatbelt mechanism". That's why we have to do things that make sense..but don't fit into a 'box' of of reg.

 

Does it put us out on a limb legal...probably....but thinking it through and managing the risk on site and sharing your concerns with the guys that you are working with will prevent you from ever having to defend the 'practical decisions" that you have to make.

 

Comply with the CARS that are black and white....and let the fear of explaining yourself to a court rule the rest of your decision making...cuz the CARS don't cover it all

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Hahaha.....we start having a civil discussion about interpretation of CARS with regard to photo flights with door off and the requirement of seatbelt or harness. Next thing you know we're talking about "hanging out of the machine" and "electrical tape". WTF?

 

So as far as I see in CARS a seatbelt is considered sufficient for flight with doors open or removed.

 

Here's a question for the rocket scientists. If you supply your photographer with a harness what type of harness does it need to be? Does it require certification? How is it tied off...climbing rope? Who is tying it off? What type of knot are YOU going to tie? You want to get yourself into watching a bunch of goofy shite just watch this show. On top of it all, put some knuckle head in a harness and watch how brave he starts to get. Some will be bravely walking up and down the skid no hands because he's trying to get the shot and feels secure doing it because YOU put him in a harness.

 

I can tell you right now that a seatbelt is an approved safety restraint. If the dudes seatbelt is on, he's not going far. Especially if you make him feel insecure when you show him how easily it can be accidently released. You want to keep your photographer safe? Put him in his seat, seatbelt on, instructed to keep all body parts within the cabin at all times. Keep an eye on him. If he chooses to not obey your rules, request that he does. When he doesn't, politely tell him that failure to obey the rules will result in either the door going back on or the termination of the flight.

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Great thread... lots of useful info. In my experience, a new to the removed door photog or camera operator gets both the harness and a seatbelt (albeit a little less tight on the seatbelt). If they highlight previous experience in similar operations, they use our military spec harness system and they have to earn our trust! They are required to demonstrate a quick disconnect of seatbelts and or harness fittings prior to takeoff.

 

A safety briefing pertinent to the specific operation is paramount as is assuring the camera operator that you (as the PIC) will adjust your flying to their needs. Assuring them that the aircraft won't be banked to the 'door removed side' unless noted/ confirmed ready lets’ them understand not just their own safety requirements, but the overall operational safety protocols at hand. Trust and communications in this case go a long way.

 

No one has mentioned the 'gung-ho' camera guy that gets caught up in their subject and removes the seatbelt 'to get a better shot' or inadvertently releases the buckle into the slipstream which beats the aircraft in flight. We have a policy in place that highlights door off operations a form for ‘door removed’ worker to review what was covered in the safety briefing and sign off as understood. Otherwise, we have also invested in a photo window which is golden in the winter and saves a bunch of door dropping/ pick-up landings (for those without the sliding doors) on multiple site missions.

 

Flying camera types is demanding but also rewarding... you just have to know when to draw the line. If I had a dollar for every camera guy that says” we could probably go lower” I’d be doing really well... but might have payed it back in TC fines!!!

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Hahaha.....we start having a civil discussion about interpretation of CARS with regard to photo flights with door off and the requirement of seatbelt or harness. Next thing you know we're talking about "hanging out of the machine" and "electrical tape". WTF?

 

When did it stop being civil?

 

So as far as I see in CARS a seatbelt is considered sufficient for flight with doors open or removed.

 

Here's a question for the rocket scientists. If you supply your photographer with a harness what type of harness does it need to be? Does it require certification?

 

That's why I asked if the harnesses have a TSO approval of some sort. I would assume that a rock climbing harness is not sufficient? What to S&R hoist operators wear? (but now you're not looking at a part 27 aircraft anymore)

 

I looked at 27.785 and 29.785....they for the most part are copy/paste. And they don't really talk about this stuff.

 

I do appreciate the info and patience with which it is being imparted.

 

I will let the grown ups talk now.

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