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Viih & Wildcat Rumours

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Heard that VIH moved, in addition to the mediums this spring, a couple of ASTARS onto the N registry recently and the 135.

 

Is this Northern Mountain all over again...????? Should I be concerned about my job?

 

 

Heard Wildcat have bought 4 x 412's, ex presidential machines with one coming online very soon and the others next year.....maybe.....A good source that has seen these machines says they are in need of some good old TLC or at least some new paint!

 

Is this the end of a era for 212's in Canada with the introduction of 412's for VFR fire work?

 

:up:

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End of an era for 212?

 

I don't know about that - let's first see if there are any 205's still working, now that there is the 212 to displace them. FYI: there are about 65 on the civil register in Canada right now; some of them are bound to be on fires.

 

Even if the 412 is successful in utility ops, it would need to be a real game-changer to justify the addditional DOC the customer would need to pay. So far, our utility customers wan to pay 206 rates for 212s, so I'm not holding my breath.

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End of an era for 212?

 

I don't know about that - let's first see if there are any 205's still working, now that there is the 212 to displace them. FYI: there are about 65 on the civil register in Canada right now; some of them are bound to be on fires.

 

Even if the 412 is successful in utility ops, it would need to be a real game-changer to justify the addditional DOC the customer would need to pay. So far, our utility customers wan to pay 206 rates for 212s, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

Kenting operated 412's from '80' to '88' as utility helicopters on fires, seizmic, test drill moves and airborne geophysical, with 2 years IFR out of Tuk. It burned 725 lbs/hr as opposed to 675 for the 212, not really a deal breaker! The problem with the 412 is it's heavy rotor system and heavier energy attenuating seats. It's 700lbs higher G/W just meant that it's high altitude and S/E performance was substantially worse than the 212. I realize that the newer models now have better engines, but so do most mountain utility 212's, which have also mostly undergone extensive lightening programs, which could not be said about 'Presidential' 412's. 412's will obviously have a 20-30 kt speed advantage over the 212 for non-external load operations. I would guess that the rental cost of a 412 would depend on the cost paid for the helicopters but would think that paying $3500+/hr for a machine that will lift less than a 212 would not be too attractive unless there was no other alternative.

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Good input chopper_guy. I would guess they have some overseas or IFR work lined up for those machines.

 

I think it will be a long time before you see a 412 taking a fire contract from 212 or 205(in Canada), and for just the reasons chopper_guy and Doc B have already mentioned. ****, Saskatchewan has four 204s on long term hire! And with the -17 upgrade, I believe we'll be seeing the 205 for many years to come.

 

Fear not boys and girls, the 'ol jiggly bus is far from dead.

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Engine operating costs for a -17 are $50/hr higher than a PT6-T, and a 205 A++ (-17 and 212 rotor) only outperforms the 212 at lower altitudes than normal ops in BC and western Alberta, and only then with external loads. No clear winner performance-wise there.

 

The Eagle 212 "S" is a good combination of the types, but also underperforms at high density altitudes. Also suffers from a 9 pax limit in Canada (though this may be repealed as the FAA has certified at 14 seats). An incremental improvement at best.

 

412 has some advantages as a utility ship versus 205 and 212. Models after the "Classic" (SP, HP, and EP) have 2200# basic fuel load without losing a penalty box to an aux tank. Cruise speed is higher with similar fuel burn. Engine performance is equivalent to the HP 212, with slight advantages in the OEI charts (no 2.5 min limits on 412). 412 can have bigger engines (equivalent to the D/F for 212) but fuel burn is an issue for our customers, unless the OEI performance is a sticking point.

 

Again, the 412 is offers incremental improvements - and now that the peculiarities of the main rotor system are well-know, the dispatch rate is as good as either of the preceeding forms of medium - with the added advantage of being current-production aircraft.

 

Will the customers pay for such slight improvements? My guess will be yes and no: oil companies may buy off on the current production and improved safety arguments, but I wouldn't hold me breath for the forestry agencies to bite: they have budgets and marginal improvements may not win them over.

 

All I can say is, Good luck Wildcat.

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Engine operating costs for a -17 are $50/hr higher than a PT6-T, and a 205 A++ (-17 and 212 rotor) only outperforms the 212 at lower altitudes than normal ops in BC and western Alberta, and only then with external loads. No clear winner performance-wise there.

 

All I can say is, Good luck Wildcat.

 

Ahem... My dear sir, all I can say is when you fall and strike your head, do not get up and keep striking it over and over.

 

While it is true that a -17 is more expensive to run than a PT6-3B, it is most certainly NOT more expensive than a twin-pac. As for performance, you have obvioulsy not flown a 205++ because your statements are wrong in the most egregious fashion possible.

 

While it is true that a 212 has an 11,200 lb limit for internal as well as external, and a 205++ has a 10,500 external and a 9,500 internal, you say "outperforms" rather than "carries a greater legal load". You go so far as to say it only outperforms a 212 "at lower altitudes than normal ops... blah blah blah". I am stunned. A 205++ will outperform a 212 from sea level to the moon. Period. And I love the 212, but your statements are crazy...

 

HV

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Harmonic Vibe is 110% correct on the 205A-1++ except the internal gross weight is 10200 lbs. The 212 can't even hope to keep up. The 412 is just a dog who cannot keep up to the 212.

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