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Flight Time Vs Air Time Vs Revenue Time

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Albert ------- thank you. It's always nice to know those that one might be spending some time in confinement with. If my client wants to check or check again what they are being charged for, I invite them to do so and it wouldn't be the first time that some customer said " Hey, I got you off 3 minutes before what you are claiming"........so I forget sometimes when I got a great customer.......so sue me. It's a 'moot' subject for me because I've yet to have a problem in that regard. Perhaps that's because I'm very 'customer-oriented' and always have been.



Peeshooter ------ I agree and have always double-checked with my times up and down for no other reason than my watch may be different than theirs. It also gets rid of the whole discussion about that and as mentioned by me before, whenever I can get that time off of a forestry person next to me or that is present, that validates it even more.....if I'm 'playing games', then so is he. When I'm operating something that is costing about $30-$40/min, not including the cost of fuel, I ain't 'screwing around' and want accuracy so these stupid discussions don't come up with some clerk and 20 witnesses........makes me look bad and I don't like that.

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As some people seem to have touchy nerves, I will not address this to anyone.


If you can read, read the AIP, it's the same across the country.


"Air Time" goes against every component on the aircraft, including the airframe. Which in turn creates the hourly rate charged to the customer.

Included in the hourly rate is insurance, crew wages, overhead and profit.


So, if you are nickle and diming the ccustomer, isn't it about time you got out of the business or increase your rates.


This is not rocket science, they get paid by the mile.




PS: WPG, I beleive is in the central region.

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I like to make sure the Hobbs meter runs with the collective strap on. That way I get paid for the time I'm on the ground loading and unloading people, and for hot-fueling as well. AFS wants to get paid solely for air time, as if loading/unloading and hot fueling isn't part of the package.


Arnie Pye

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Blackmac ----- yes WPG in in Central Region with ONE person to cover the whole Region. There used to be TWO, but they moved that positon to Edmonton......and I'm sure you realize how large Central Region is also. The person that does that is a very good friend, BUT is not the only MOT Inspector in the West that hasn't 'batted an eye" at what they saw on my books and those of others. The list is quite long.


Let's not 'go there' about MOT rules because I can go from Toronto to BC and think I went from one country to another and yet I'm told that the rules are the same nation-wide. They don't have a separate section in CARS for East vs West, but there should be because what I can do in Pacific Region may well get my *** grounded or fined in the East. My MOT inspector and I have had some very 'interesting' conversations over coffee about this for well over 10 years. Until it changes, I watch my butt real close when going across Canada.


Arnie Pye -----I have no problem with what you stated, but I have yet to see a Hobbs meter that does what you want. Personally, I go over all this with the client and if I'm going to charge while sitting on terre firma, he's advised beforehand or some agreement is worked out. 'Agreements', 'understandings' and 'directions' beat Hobbs meters any day.....and save arguments later with the person paying the bill. She ain't running while I'm outside the a/c anyway, so that part doesn't bother me. I ain't loading her and neither is my engineer. I gotta be at the controls and he's 'over-qualified' and meant for supervision of the loading ONLY, IF he's available.......but that's just me. Working as a 'team' with my engineer does not mean that loads get dropped off and are left for him and I to load.....sorry, but it's not going to happen. Again, that's agreed to with the client and I've yet to have a problem with them or my operations on this. I'm referring now to Medium operations. I used to do different with 206's, but came close to a disaster one time eons ago with a 206 with a 'boosted T/R' and since then I might stand on the ground, BUT I'm in the open doorway JUST IN CASE. I believe my allotment of 'horseshoes' is almost used-up, so I ain't pushing it. :D

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The Hobb's meter has always had problems from the first day it was invented.


I remember one pilot who used to turn on the battery raise the collective and gain a few hours without turning a rotor.


My whole discussion was defining the definition of "Flight and Air Time" and were they went in the log books and what to charge the customer.


If anybody has bothered to read the "Air Charter" conditions attached to any contract that is put out by PWGSC, you will see most scenario's are covered for the Charterer and the Operator. It's called being fair.


You will also find that most of the problems being caused by the different fire centres has occured since de-regulation.


At one time the operator basically wrote the contract in accordance with his filed tarrif, including regulations that applied to both parties.


Nowadays the charterer calls the shots and the operators bend over.


Instead of supplying just an hourly rate, supply a copy of your Tariff including your conditions on the contract.


The gentleman who sent me an e-mail re; Hobbs meter and the B3 hourly meter on the engine.


I beleive you got my answer re the hobbs meter.


As for the hour meter on the B3 engine, what can I say, if TC has approved that method, that means that every time you are running the engine for whatever on the ground, it's costing you a bundle.


Running an aircraft on the ground has never been included as "Air Time" as you do not reach the power settings and stress settings required for flight.


I would check with the manufacturer and TC as you will end up with different entries for the airframe and the engine.



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Absolutely, twinstar, heli Jimbo should not make such rude comments!


The flight time air time thing has been a topic of discussion and contention for some time, to avoid "any problems", and lets face it it's better to keep the customer happy and avoid potential time padding accusations on lean budget jobs. One time the chap I was flying with was so anal on the bill and his budget that I told him to keep the time " skids up". This way my numbers would never conflict and my butt is safe. Forestry is different in every province and once again be very careful in Saskatchewan in specific the Hudsonbay base and Laronge.


Today I make a point of always agreeing with the dispatcher and getting official times. It's just not worth the problem to have to deal with ladder climbing low level bureaucrats who live to point fingers at pilots so that they can prove that they saved the ministry money. I know it's pathetic but it's just not worth the hassle.


Fly safe



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I agee with "charging what you FLY" and never said otherwise. I may have been misunderstood and I'll take the blame for poor syntax then...and I'll simplify it also. I take some people out, drop them off and return to base and the total flying is 1.0hrs. That's what the customer gets charged and what I log personally, but the a/c is still running when they exit..

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I agree, charge what you fly, but make dam sure that the client isn't riding the budgetary wave and looking for an excuse to make a compliant (it's business after all!). Like anything that involves money and in particular the high cost of operating helicopters at $1000/ hr plus. You have to agree that the client is going to watch the time like a hawk. Add the equation the confusion over skids up and down , Hobbs meters, and different policies all over the place depending where you work. My advice to any pilot is to make dam sure before the flight ticket that gets sent in for billing to make absolutely sure that very body is on the same page and that there is ZERO chance of discrepancies and differences in interpretation of facts or billed time.. Cause if there is the pilot is the one who is going to get accused of padding the time. When things involve money, the ******* comes out, as the pilot it's better to make sure 100% no matter what that nothing or any confusion is coming your way. It's the client that makes the rules.



If we where all doctors with unquestioned Ph'ds, then the client would not dare question our word, unfortunately the pilot has to face the politics of business and any good pilot who has been dragged through this issue knows that he must keep the client happy at all cost to avoid any questions directed to his integrity or honesty.






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