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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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OGEgirl    21

Can't find the amendment to CARs for definition of helicopter flight time so do we revert back to logging air time?

 

 

 

General Aviation Policy Letter (GAPL) No. 2005-02

 

Reference

Canadian Aviation Regulations Part I - General Provisions, Sub-part 1 Interpretation

 

Background

CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".

 

For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.

 

Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped." In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter "flight time" for helicopters on skids.

 

Action

In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."

 

In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter "flight time" will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.

 

Effective Date

September 1, 2005

 

Expiry Date

This Policy Letter will expire with the appropriate amendment to the CARs.

 

Manzur Huq

Director

General Aviation

 

 

 

 

CANCELLATION NOTICE

 

General Aviation Policy Letter 2005-02, dated 2005-09-07 – Definition of “flight time” is cancelled, effective 2011-08-12.

 

[original signed by]

 

Jacqueline Booth

A/Director, Standards

Civil Aviation

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Coastal    43

Intriguing. It would be nice to get a concrete answer, this always seems to be a grey area open to interpretation.

 

Suppose you can't go wrong with simply logging skids up to skids down (air time), though logging flight time is acceptable in my opinion...provided there is actually a flight (no logging ground runs).

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hybrid    151

When you obtaining a license you are charged off a Hobbs Meter, that is flight time. So I think it is quite acceptable to log engine start till shutdown, if the blades are spinning you are pretty much flying. Another way to log flight time is add a .1 to every landing, within reason of coarse.

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Grasshopper    130

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight

 

(From CAR 101.01 Interpretation)

 

With the cancellation referred to, there really doesn't appear to be ANY room for interpretation. On skids, unless you're going to grind up pavement and skid shoes, both are effectively the same.

 

On wheels or floats, you can taxi around in 'flight time' but you don't count 'air time' until you're airborne.

 

Am I missing something here? :unsure:

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OGEgirl    21

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight

 

(From CAR 101.01 Interpretation)

 

With the cancellation referred to, there really doesn't appear to be ANY room for interpretation. On skids, unless you're going to grind up pavement and skid shoes, both are effectively the same.

 

On wheels or floats, you can taxi around in 'flight time' but you don't count 'air time' until you're airborne.

 

Am I missing something here? :unsure:

 

 

So if we now are basically logging AIR TIME and FLIGHT TIME as the same thing for helicopters on skids. Then when training through a flight school which most bill Engine running time will students have to pay more to get that 100hrs of personal logbook time?

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flingwinger    55

So if we now are basically logging AIR TIME and FLIGHT TIME as the same thing for helicopters on skids. Then when training through a flight school which most bill Engine running time will students have to pay more to get that 100hrs of personal logbook time?

 

Good topic, when you add up all that time sitting on the ground in flight school it adds up to a considerable amount.

 

IMO if the blades are spinning, it should be flight time.

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marc    14

In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."

[/Quote]

 

While training, you may get billed Flight time (Engines running), Now you log it that way?

 

Do you need 100 HRs of Flight Time or Air Time for a licence?

 

If Flight Time, and at a school that charges air time you could conceivably get a licence with 95 hrs of air time billed to you but log flight time?

 

Note: I am not a pilot....

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OGEgirl    21

 

If Flight Time, and at a school that charges air time you could conceivably get a licence with 95 hrs of air time billed to you but log flight time?

 

 

 

Good Point Marc, I guess some of us who Paid airtime paid too much :)

 

So now what is the Legal definition of flight time and will the training schools who charge Engine Time now have to charge more so there students logbooks are legal and meet the requirements?

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Iceman    81

Really all that should go in your logbook is Airtime, the time spent in flight or if need be during toe in's etc. You are not flying the aircraft or getting any real experience sitting in ground idle.

 

Anyone charging you from the time the engine is started till it's shutdown is a thief.

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chopper_guy    20

Really all that should go in your logbook is Airtime, the time spent in flight or if need be at flight idle during toe in's etc. You are not flying the aircraft or getting any real experience sitting in ground idle.

 

Anyone charging you from the time the engine is started till it's shutdown is a thief.

I'm sorry but recording air time as flight time is rediculous. If the blades are turning I am responsible if anyone walks into a blade or if something mechanical happens and I have to use my knowledge and experience to save things. Also, many times you are making 1 or 2 minute flights with 1, or 2 minutes on the ground loading and unloading or waiting for your passenger to have a short confab with someone on the ground. Sure, use air-time for A/F time, but if the client is paying for it I will be logging it. There is no way I will be flying for an hour, with 15 landings, 30 minutes air-time and 30 minutes on the ground and only charge 30 minutes. That is the way it has been ever since Pontius was a pilot! I have been flying 44 years with 20,000+ hrs. If you've been only using air time in your personal logbook you've been gypping yourself. If you've been putting flight time in the journey log as A/F time you've been gypping the H/C owner.

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