Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Iceman]

Twiddling your thumbs too : )

[splitpin]

Twiddling your thumbs too : )

 

A lot of guys spank their monkey as well. :-)

[J Kupecz]

Twiddling your thumbs too : )

 

I suppose some twiddling would be in order there.

[marc]

CARs Quotes:

 

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

 

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

 

( recency.

 

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and ( shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

 

(a) the date of the flight;

 

( the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

 

© the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

 

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

 

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

 

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

 

(g) the flight time;

 

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

 

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

 

 

 

Commercial Helicopter Licence:

 

(4) Experience

 

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 100 hours pilot flight time in helicopters, of which a minimum of 35 hours shall be pilot-in-command flight time, including 10 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time; and

 

[/Quote]

 

All prerequisite requirements in CARs state PIC Flight Time. So if your need 50hrs night for an ATPL it has to be 50 hrs PIC Flight time. So why keep your personal log in Air Time???

[Petit-Lion]

I am an operator. Is it legal to have the turbine started by a peanuts-paid-rampie, then the rampie jumps out and the pilot jumps in just prior to take off? And the reverse at arrival: the pilot bails out, and the rampie cools down the engine, brakes the rotor, and disembarks the passengers?

[Skids Up]

You're an operator, and asking that question????

 

Ask you insurance agent for the correct answer...

[Zazu]

In my humble opinion...it is skids up to skids down...period. What goes in the JLB goes in my logbook.

 

As for training purposes I can kind of understand (I did have this out with my instructor btw) since the instructor is indeed working very hard, and you probably are too...not to mention the machine is probably taking a kicking.

 

After just over 10 years on the stick,not including 214 time, I have around 4000 hrs. With my 214 time I probably have 5000 TT since I have the endorsement. I always put the lower number since that has always been what matters in the longrun. I'm tired of seeing guys come off the same contracts I used to run as a lowtimer but with double the time in their logbooks and then ask me how I put a a CO2 canister by such and such a wellhead. Good luck on asking a guy that does that to spell me off for a bit on a drill move should I feel the need.

 

The only time I adjusted this was when I would do multiple run-ups on a machine as a lowtimer...ie 35 starts on jetranger trying to track the blades...I put in for 3.5 since I knew that if I blew the engine I would lose my job...and I was indeed paying attention each and every start. I also documented it in my own logbook as such and why.

 

What you get paid, or what you charge your customer has no bearing whatsoever on your skill level. Obviously this changes once you reach a certain level but by this time it really doesn't matter much...you'll probably figure this out when you are asked to do a job with such and such an hour requirement and your first concern is to figure out where your lost time sheets are,and not, if you have the time at all or how close you are.

 

Be honest.

[alphadog]

In my humble opinion...it is skids up to skids down...period. What goes in the JLB goes in my logbook.

 

As for training purposes I can kind of understand (I did have this out with my instructor btw) since the instructor is indeed working very hard, and you probably are too...not to mention the machine is probably taking a kicking.

 

After just over 10 years on the stick,not including 214 time, I have around 4000 hrs. With my 214 time I probably have 5000 TT since I have the endorsement. I always put the lower number since that has always been what matters in the longrun. I'm tired of seeing guys come off the same contracts I used to run as a lowtimer but with double the time in their logbooks and then ask me how I put a a CO2 canister by such and such a wellhead. Good luck on asking a guy that does that to spell me off for a bit on a drill move should I feel the need.

 

The only time I adjusted this was when I would do multiple run-ups on a machine as a lowtimer...ie 35 starts on jetranger trying to track the blades...I put in for 3.5 since I knew that if I blew the engine I would lose my job...and I was indeed paying attention each and every start. I also documented it in my own logbook as such and why.

 

What you get paid, or what you charge your customer has no bearing whatsoever on your skill level. Obviously this changes once you reach a certain level but by this time it really doesn't matter much...you'll probably figure this out when you are asked to do a job with such and such an hour requirement and your first concern is to figure out where your lost time sheets are,and not, if you have the time at all or how close you are.

 

Be honest.

Soooo,you log 35 starts without even getting off the ground for a second,because you could lose your job if you wrecked the engine and what not,yet the guy that logs engine start to engine stop on a turbine machine or even on a piston machine should not? Hmmm...That does not make much sense. And your saying that you have 1000 hrs of 214 that you did not log even if you are endorsed? Wtf? Wow! You really sacrifice a lot.....for what purpose? Even if it was as a co-pilot(which I suspect it was) it would matter.And you are sick of your colleagues coming up with double the time that you got in the past on the same contract? Maybe the contract specifications or mins changed or maybe those guys don't want to skip 1000 hrs to please you. You sound very disgruntled for a 4000 hrs pilot.And can you do the jobs that other pilots cant do because they "lost time sheets"? What is a CO2 canister and what does have to do with the subject matter? Your whole post does not make sense and has no valuable argument to the subject matter.Go on ,tell us some more about your 10 years at the stick and those drill bits .

[marc]

But none of this really matters because according to the original post:

 

CANCELLATION NOTICE

 

General Aviation Policy Letter 2005-02, dated 2005-09-07 – Definition of “flight time” is cancelled, effective 2011-08-12.

 

 

 

CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".

 

For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.

 

[/Quote]

 

So Between 2005-09-07 and 2011-08-12 one should have followed the ICAO definition: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."

 

And before 2005-09-07 and after 2011-08-12 Flight Time and Air Time are to be the same.

 

Better go back and fix all your logs! hahahahaaaaaaa Yeah....right. And a bunch of guys in an office building somewhere get paid by our tax dollars to mess with everyone's heads.

[Zazu]

Soooo,you log 35 starts without even getting off the ground for a second,because you could lose your job if you wrecked the engine and what not,yet the guy that logs engine start to engine stop on a turbine machine or even on a piston machine should not? Hmmm...That does not make much sense. And your saying that you have 1000 hrs of 214 that you did not log even if you are endorsed? Wtf? Wow! You really sacrifice a lot.....for what purpose? Even if it was as a co-pilot(which I suspect it was) it would matter.And you are sick of your colleagues coming up with double the time that you got in the past on the same contract? Maybe the contract specifications or mins changed or maybe those guys don't want to skip 1000 hrs to please you. You sound very disgruntled for a 4000 hrs pilot.And can you do the jobs that other pilots cant do because they "lost time sheets"? What is a CO2 canister and what does have to do with the subject matter? Your whole post does not make sense and has no valuable argument to the subject matter.Go on ,tell us some more about your 10 years at the stick and those drill bits .

-Got off the ground every start...sometimes only in a hover.

-The guy that flies a 44 twiddling his thumbs is not gaining any experience at the time, I know it didn't for me on flat and level ground, although I did charge for fuel and whatnot depending on the contract.

-I did not say that I had 1000 hrs of 214 time but was rather general with both my real time and 214 time although it is close. I did log it but when I was done everybody I applied with knew **** well I was no 1000 hour pilot...the learning experience in certain aspects was invaluable but that didn't mean I could fly like a true 1000 hour pilot. It sure came in handy though when I had a 1000 hrs PIC and certain people needed 1500 TT with the requisite endorsement. I must say that it's pretty cool though to look at that old blue paper and and see just a 22 and 214 endorsement . LOL!!!

-The contract specs and mins didn't change and trust me I don't aim for them to please me.

-Read my post again and you will find that I was trying to reference accordingly the fact that the gentlemen looking for lost time sheets are the high timers that haven't kept a logbook in years and to get the job they are trying to find them...they usually go their accountant! Usually need 100 hrs on type and haven't flown one for 20 years

-I didn't say that they couln't do the job that I could now, I was only trying to reference my ability to theirs at the same time in our respective careers.

 

You did well in correcting me and I thank you for doing so...except for one very important detail...I am far from disgruntled and very happy flying helicopters. I find it rewarding and challenging. I still keep my flight books and every year that I am asked to reconcile my logbook for contract considerations, I take pride in, and reflect fondly (and sometimes not so fondly LOL!) on every .1 that I actually flew the machine.

 

Fly safe

 

Zazu