Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Skidmark]

Sounds like almost everyone agrees that the customer should be charged flight time, so why when i work for various forestry agencies around the country I only charge them off a stupid HOBBS meter that is usually connected to the collective????? If I'm at flat pitch coming in for a bucket dip should the customer not be getting billed for that? Should the helicopter not be getting that time in the log book, it is most certainly in the air, and the way I fly those components are most definitely getting a work out? When you ask most operators or other pilots how they determine "air time" the common answer seems to be, "I use the HOBBS meter". How accurate is this for determining "air time"?

 

Going back a bit in the thread, what kind of WANKER would "twiddle" themselves in an idling helicopter?

[407driver]

If I'm at flat pitch coming in for a bucket dip should the customer not be getting billed for that?

 

One time I took a student on an auto training flight in an R44, skids up to skids down 1:23 min. Hobbs time 1.1 How much should I have billed?

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Going back a bit in the thread, what kind of WANKER would "twiddle" themselves in an idling helicopter?

 

 

HV

[47G]

How about for the sake of simplicity and accuracy we just look at the CARs. Car 101.01 specifically which states:

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

To me it indicates it does not matter when the engine starts or stops, but when the aircraft starts to move under its own power. So... for a fixed wing and a helicopter on wheels flight time starts when the ship begins to taxi along the ground and air time starts when the wheels leave the ground. For a helicopter on skids, flight time and air time should be the same unless you are "skidding" it along the ground without lifting off.

 

That being said, some companies on some jobs have negotiated special rates for extended idle time on the ground, but this is neither air time nor flight time.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Guest plumber]

How about for the sake of simplicity and accuracy we just look at the CARs. Car 101.01 specifically which states:

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

To me it indicates it does not matter when the engine starts or stops, but when the aircraft starts to move under its own power. So... for a fixed wing and a helicopter on wheels flight time starts when the ship begins to taxi along the ground and air time starts when the wheels leave the ground. For a helicopter on skids, flight time and air time should be the same unless you are "skidding" it along the ground without lifting off.

 

That being said, some companies on some jobs have negotiated special rates for extended idle time on the ground, but this is neither air time nor flight time.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Then like Pilot 5 said your customer better get good at starting that baby cause I don't just become PIC when the skids leave the ground.

[KiloMike]

why don't you walk into the chief pilots office tomorrow morning and ask them what they think, then as what they think you should bill the customer. Then ask them what they do....

[pilot5]

"Moves under its own power" is the key phrase here. Donno but this can be interpreted many ways..

 

Technically speaking if the main disk has any kind of vertical in it - It will be moving! Splitting hairs!? movement is movement and the purpose for the movements although of minute measure is for the purose of enevtually taking off???

 

If the engine is running, as far as I am concerned the customerr is getting billed and I am being paid! End of story. If the engine is running there is wear on it as there is with all other dynamic components.. Why shouldnt the customer pay for it!! ??

 

P5

[skullcap]

I guess you have to look at what the customer wants to pay for and what is the mission. If I remember correctly the tarriff book used to say that if the helicopter is shutdown but is restarted within 15 minutes then the time shutdown can be billed as there is extra cost in the start cycle. Sometimes the customer does not want the helicopter shutdown and requests it to be left running as was case in Arctic years ago and agreed to pay running time. But truly if you think that it is fair to pay an extra 8 minutes for start and shutdown for a flight which may take 18 minutes you're nuts and will lose customers. If I as a customer were to get a quote for example a flight from Canmore to Calgary and the manager says it is 1.1 hours return and when questioned why the flight was an extra 16 minutes and the pilot told me he charges from time machine starts to shut down then would be rather pissed.

 

Put in your logbook what you friggin like, as long as it not more than you bill for and be prepared to explain why you logged more than what the journey log says if doing so. Counting hours sitting idling in your logbook has nothing to do with how you are paid try to keep that in mind when dealing with this issue.

 

,,Oh and have read this statement about loyalty is equal to being a dog,,,rather be a dog than a whore.

[Freewheel]

This topic seems to have evolved into how the customer should be billed. It should be noted that the TC inspectors I have talked to have no interest in getting involved with how we bill. This is not TC's business. This is exactly why many companies have introduce terms like "running Time", "Op's Time" or billing time. Some have replaced the "flight Time" column in the log book with these terms; they tell their customers that they bill by this time and TC has no issue with it.

What's important is how this relates to logging hours for Flight/duty Times/ Training and pilot logs etc.

 

Also, it seems everyone is stuck on when Flight Time starts. Perhaps we should examine when it ends. Even if we agree that it starts when the aircraft first moves under it's own power, when does it end?

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

According to transport's interpretation : "until it comes into contact with the earth's surface" and "comes to rest at the end of the flight" both occur at the same time. If you ask me these both occur at different times in most cases. Has an aircraft sitting on muskeg or snow (at full throttle) come to rest? I would say NO, however I would say it is in contact with the earth's surface.

[JTL]

All I know if the helicopter blades are turning and something goes wrong and you are in the pilots seat they will come after you to investigate what happened. If you did something wrong then it will be your license they will revolk. Thats my definition of flight time. Time you are at the controls with the thing flinging. You can log what you want but be aware you are in charge when it is running.