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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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So what I personally see, is that Transport Canada reverted back to skids up first time to skids down last time as FLIGHT TIME, and Any time in the AIR as AIR TIME.

 

CARs Definition - "Flight Time" means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

 

Where did you find the definition "skids up first time to skids down last time" or is that an interpretation?

I still am of the opinion that if TC issued the policy letter in the first place to clarify there own definition which is in line with the ICAO version. Then if they cancel there clarification letter where does that leave us. Unclarified so maybe it can be interpreted loosely. But i don't see it reverting back to anything except the original unclarified definition above. Also to back that up all countries are suppose to list there regulation differences with the ICAO versions. Now Canada has listed some differences but Canada has not listed any differences on the definition of "flight time". Now this is just my interpretation.

ICAO Definition

Flight time — aeroplanes. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for thepurpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.Note. —Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term ―block to block time or―chock to chock time in general usage which is measured from the time an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until it finally stops at the end of the flight.

Flight time — helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

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CARs Definition - "Flight Time" means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

 

Where did you find the definition "skids up first time to skids down last time" or is that an interpretation?

 

I have interpreted "first moves under own power" to mean the entire lift off the ground, or wheels start rolling on the pavement under own power.

 

It does seem to be the intent of the "interpretation" after they cancelled the interpretation of the interpretation...

 

Cheers

H.

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As I have stated before, if you have concerns about this issue you should ask your Chief Pilot or Operations Manager to push TC for a clarification.

 

You can also submit a report (CAIRS) through the Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System @:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/opssvs/secretariat-cairs-menu-209.htm

 

The Accountable Manager has not responded to our numerous e-mails asking for an update; we are well past the deadline they advised they would respond by.

We are uncertain at this time if the CAIRs we submitted is even open or if they have closed the issue without advisng us.

 

Taken from TC Website:

"CAIRS: Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System

Transport Canada Civil Aviation Wants to Hear From You!

 

Recognizing the benefits of stakeholder feedback, TCCA had previously implemented a Complaint Handling Policy and Procedure in 1997 aimed at improving stakeholder relationships by listening to and then resolving identified issues. However, this policy had limitations, including the absence of tracking mechanisms to follow improvement opportunities and communication with correspondents. To address the limitations and meet the commitments of Results for Canadians, the Complaint Handling Policy has now been replaced by the Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System (CAIRS).

 

The CAIRS was launched on May 3, 2005 and made it possible for TCCA’s internal and external stakeholders to raise a wider range of issues (concerns, complaints, compliments or suggestions for improvement) with management. The key principles of the CAIRS are to foster a respectful work environment through the prevention, effective management and prompt resolution of issues at the lowest possible level in the organization; as well as to provide a basis for a reporting culture within the aviation industry. Such a reporting system creates a work environment where issues are seen as opportunities to continually improve the way TCCA does business."

 

According to the TC website, they encourage you to report these issues. Without fostering a reporting culture their Integrated Management System would not be effective.

 

As pilots, you also have every right to contact the Director of Standards - Jacqueline Booth directly to request clarification and voice your concerns. You might want to cc the CAIRS co-ordinator I have been dealing with as well.

 

e-mail: [email protected]

CC: [email protected]

 

Feel free to reference our case CAIRS IB 8718 and my e-mails which are posted earlier on in the forum.

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So what I personally see, is that Transport Canada reverted back to skids up first time to skids down last time as FLIGHT TIME, and Any time in the AIR as AIR TIME.

 

 

Winnie,

 

I do agree with your interpretation of flight time makes sense. However in the "Flight Time" definition if one was to interpret "the FLIGHT" as 1 take off and landing, or skids up to skids down then essentially for skid equipped helicopters flight time would be the same as airtime. However the "flight" definition in CARs refers to balloons and supporting surfaces.

 

Now I was lucky and was charged airtime for my commercial licence, I didn't know any better at the time. But there are a lot of flight schools out there that I believe Bill flight time as engines running time or rotors turning to rotors stopped time. Flight time determines the experience for a commercial licence, so if i were on a training flight and spent 5-10min starting the helicopter and going through checks and getting clearances. Then taking off and landing with multiple circuits into confined areas pausing on the ground for 5 min to talk about a couple approaches then continuing back to the hanger with a 2-5 minute shutdown over an hour flight the airtime would actually only be around 0.7.

 

Now I have a couple friends working for 2 different companies who were both instructed to log "Airtime" in there personal logbooks and flight and duty times. So if some transport Canada Officials are saying that "flight time" is the same as "airtime" for skid equipped helicopters we will have many grossly under qualified commercial pilots with licenses that actually don't meet the licensing standards. Now I may have interpreted some of this information wrong but I do believe that Freewheel is correct when previously he said that this leaves us all (Pilots, Operators, FTU's) open to legalities caused by TC's confusing interpretations. I will submit my report to CAIRS http://www.tc.gc.ca/...rs-menu-209.htm and hope that the more people that show concern hopefully the issue will be resolved and there will be more transperancy in the industry with everyone playing at the same level.

 

 

 

(4) Experience-Commercial licence

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 100 hours pilot flight time in helicopters, of which a minimum of 35 hours shall be pilot-in-command flight time, including 10 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time; and

 

CARs Definition:

"flight", in respect of a balloon in free or tethered flight, means the period of time between the moment when the balloon, including the envelope and basket, leaves a supporting surface and the moment it next comes to rest on landing;

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When I trained in 03/04 I paid for flight time, and logged as such. I have been told to log the same (flight time) for duty time by current and past employers.

 

 

(4) Experience

 

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 100 hours pilot flight time in helicopters, of which a minimum of 35 hours shall be pilot-in-command flight time, including 10 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time; and

 

Do you see AIR TIME in there anywhere?

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When I trained in 03/04 I paid for flight time, and logged as such. I have been told to log the same (flight time) for duty time by current and past employers.

 

 

(4) Experience

 

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 100 hours pilot flight time in helicopters, of which a minimum of 35 hours shall be pilot-in-command flight time, including 10 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time; and

 

Do you see AIR TIME in there anywhere?

Flingwinger what do you consider Flight Time?

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First skids up after start to last skids down before shut down is flight time.

 

And that is correct!

 

(At least how I interpret it.)

 

At the schools I have worked, we have added 0.1 to the total air time to obtain FLIGHT TIME, and don't find that completely unfair, as you can spend 20 minutes or more on the ground. The hobbs meter in most of those machines ONLY run in the air to get AIRTIME.

 

Cheers

H.

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The General Policy Letter was in effect for 2005 to 2011, so any licences issued during that period(and hours logged) following those definitions would have to be grandfathered. Now what about the people who only logged "air time" and exceeded the flight duty restrictions?

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Should we really need a pilot union or another association as some have suggested in another forum) to deal with such basic principles? This is a very basic principle and should be basic knowledge for all inspectors. How are they expected to audit training records, if they are not clear on the definition of flight time?

 

Personally, I am not a big fan of unions, but that is another discussion altogether...sometimes you just need to speak up as individuals to be heard.

 

The tools exist (ie. CAIRs)for stakeholders to come forward with concerns, so why not use them. In this day and age, social networking sites such as these allow industry stakeholders from across the country to communicate about issues like never before. If you have time to post on this forum, you likely have time to report your concerns; we've clearly identified an issue here.

 

Sometimes adding another layer of beauraucrats (associations and unions)to a discussion only confuses things further. Why would you want another middle man between you (as the stakeholder) and TC when dealing with such issues? Personally, I'd prefer to have the Director of Standards answer my question directly than have to hear it through the HAC. Direct communication also ensures that all of your concerns are voiced to the appropriate person.

 

These are not labour issues, and we are not "lobbying" to have the CARs amended here (as my inspector advised me to do if I did not like the regs as they are written). I am simply asking for a simple clarification of the rules as they exist.

 

It's unfortunate that this issue seems to have identified some other issues (such as the effectiveness of TC's own Reporting system for stakehoklders), however if enough "stakeholders" raise the issue it will eventually have to be dealt with. We should not need to lobby for such basic answers; however the fact of the matter is sometimes we need to push for answers.

 

It seems that some people at TC fail to view all of us "stakeholders" in the industry. But that is the key word here; all people working in this industry (Pilots, AME's, Management etc.) are stakeholders who have a vestid interest in seeing it move forward in a safe, economically sound fashion. Without these very people, there is no industry (and likely alot less Transport Canada employees). Most of these people are honest people who only want o follow the rules; we count on Transport Canada to provide clear rules and clarify issues such as thes when they arise.

If you want this attitude to change you need to speak up as individuals and use the tools that are provided. If you want to be treated as stakeholders by TC, then maybe we need to start acting a little more like "stakeholders".

 

Under the new SMS framework/mindset, not only should the accountable executive encourage your report, you have a responsibilty to provide one if you've identified an issue.

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