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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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Sent Feb 6/13:

 

"Hi Yves,

Sorry for all the e-mails, but the experience over the past 2 years has made me wonder if the people I am dealing with have really reviewed CAIRS/Findings and communications. This is understandable as there is a huge amount of information and communications to review. I simply want to ensure you fully understand what happened. Up until this point it seems you may not be fully informed.

 

Below is GAPL 2005-02 that was issued by Transport Canada in 2005 acknowledging that some individuals are misinterpretating the definition of flight time for skid equipped helicopters and that those logging flight time in skid equipped helicopters should use the ICAO definition: “the total time from the moment a helicopters blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest and the rotor blades are stopped”. Do you disagree that this document states this? This document was not cancelled until the August of 2011, several months after the finding was made. Under this interpretation, flight time would include start up to shut down (and then some if the aircraft didn’t have a rotor break).

 

Todd does not recall exactly what he said 2 years ago, but if he had inadvertently stated start to shut down, we are now splitting hairs (and in allignment with TC’s policy in effect at the time). You are talking about maybe a period of 2 – 3 minutes for start and shut down; insignificant amounts in the grand scheme of things compared using the “flight Time = Air Time” interpretation. I demonstrated this to you with our Moosonee _ Moose Factory example. I have also demonstrated that my POI believed flight time should equal air time.

 

I can also tell you that I don’t believe Todd was including the period of start and shut down in his flight time. Espescially considering the aircraft had electronic air time counters installed."

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" I have yet to hear or see anything that even remotely sounds or looks official from TC on the matter".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skidz, you are absolutely right...

 

Perhaps anyone who would like an official response from TC should contact Mr. Lemieux, afterall on Jan 24/13, he advised:

 

"We agreed that the statement “Flight time and Air time are the same for skid equipped helicopter, accordingly the recorded time shall be the same.” included in the generic COM provided by TC to helicopter operators in the late 90s is responsible for the confusion and inconsistencies among helicopter pilots and operators and Transport Canada Inspectors. We agreed that this statement must be removed from every helicopter operators’ COM.

 

I committed to lead an initiative to clear for the industry and TC inspectors the confusion that currently exist with regards to the logging of air time and flight time for helicopters. I will consult with Directors in the other Regions and HQ to determine how this can best be accomplished." I think he should have had ample time to give us an update, what do you think? You might have better luck getting a response than I, LOL.

 

Here is Yves Lemieux's e-mail address: [email protected]

 

In the meantime, I have attached a Company Operations Notice that was distributed to pilots at our organization explaining: "Procedures for calculating Air Time and Flight Time" . We feel this CON to be accurate; however would welcome any input from fellow pilots.

Company operational notice-11.pdf

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Well with all the cut backs we are all going to have to chip in for TC :lol:

 

Any new news on the subject been a while.

If I was actually billing for the hundreds of hours spent dealing with this issue, you'd have a pretty hefty invoice. I wonder what TC actually cost my company if I were to figure out my wages on this one?

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I really wish TC would get their heads out of their arses for once and give us a clear interpretation and publish it in black & white in CARs and in the TC AIM.

 

There seems to be a world-wide push for aviation authorities to align their regs with those of ICAO. Why if everywhere else in the world flight time is from startup to shutdown is it different in Canada ? Are we that "special" ?

 

What is HAC's stand on the issue ? Do they have one ?

 

Gimme a break !!! :rolleyes:

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Skidz, you are absolutely right...

 

Perhaps anyone who would like an official response from TC should contact Mr. Lemieux, afterall on Jan 24/13, he advised:

 

"We agreed that the statement “Flight time and Air time are the same for skid equipped helicopter, accordingly the recorded time shall be the same.” included in the generic COM provided by TC to helicopter operators in the late 90s is responsible for the confusion and inconsistencies among helicopter pilots and operators and Transport Canada Inspectors. We agreed that this statement must be removed from every helicopter operators’ COM.

 

I committed to lead an initiative to clear for the industry and TC inspectors the confusion that currently exist with regards to the logging of air time and flight time for helicopters. I will consult with Directors in the other Regions and HQ to determine how this can best be accomplished." I think he should have had ample time to give us an update, what do you think? You might have better luck getting a response than I, LOL.

 

Here is Yves Lemieux's e-mail address: [email protected]

 

In the meantime, I have attached a Company Operations Notice that was distributed to pilots at our organization explaining: "Procedures for calculating Air Time and Flight Time" . We feel this CON to be accurate; however would welcome any input from fellow pilots.

 

  • According to this company form I better add a lot of time to my personal logbook. Wow have I been ripping myself off! So while I'm hot refuelling and still have my longline on I guess I can keep logging it as "longline time"?? LMAO!
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  • According to this company form I better add a lot of time to my personal logbook. Wow have I been ripping myself off! So while I'm hot refuelling and still have my longline on I guess I can keep logging it as "longline time"?? LMAO!

 

 

I guess we need to have Air Time, Flying Time and Flight Time.

 

One for the aircraft logbook, one for your logbook and one for the flight report book!

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So while I'm hot refuelling and still have my longline on I guess I can keep logging it as "longline time"?? LMAO!

 

 

I guess if your desperate enough you could log that time as longline time but like helicopterjim said, it comes down to honesty. There are already enough guys in the industry BS there times.

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I guess if your desperate enough you could log that time as longline time but like helicopterjim said, it comes down to honesty. There are already enough guys in the industry BS there times.

 

 

Exactly so a guy sitting on the ground shouldn't be logging the time! YOUR DOING NOTHING. Skids up to skids down, what goes into the aircraft journey logbook should go into your personal logbook. This is probably why so many people that come around saying they have 1000hrs still flying like they have 300hrs because they are logging every second they are in the machine. I guess all the 100hr guys should get checked out to do all the maintenance ground runs so they can log the time to meet customers requirements.... $h!t even throw the longline on and they can say they have longline time! haha

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Exactly so a guy sitting on the ground shouldn't be logging the time! YOUR DOING NOTHING. Skids up to skids down, what goes into the aircraft journey logbook should go into your personal logbook. This is probably why so many people that come around saying they have 1000hrs still flying like they have 300hrs because they are logging every second they are in the machine. I guess all the 100hr guys should get checked out to do all the maintenance ground runs so they can log the time to meet customers requirements.... $h!t even throw the longline on and they can say they have longline time! haha

 

If I were to read the 2005-02 policy letter issued from TC I would interpret flight time as "Rotors turning to Rotors stopped" But to support your opinion if I were to Read most Company OPS Manuals across Canada it would say "Flight time and Air time are the same for skid equipped helicopters". Now if you read the CARs definition, it is left up to interpretation for skid equipped helicopters. But also to support your opinion in Freewheels case with the PVI finding. Transport Canada has created confusion with this policy letter interpretation, and the definition in the COM's across Canada which interprets the CARs definition for skid equipped helicopters in 2 opposite ways, but they still uphold the COM's over the 2005-02 policy letter they issued. Which in my opinion is ridiculous and they should admit the confusion caused by the different TC documents issued. especially after admitting the COM's definition was written in error. IF they admit that Flight time and Airtime are not the same, and they themselves have proven they were also confused for the flight time interpretations for skid equipped helicopters. How can they uphold the finding against one company when many other companies (flight Schools) are logging training differently? Why are flight schools allowed to log flight time and airtime differently but general commercial operators has the log flight time and air time as the same. There should be a clear standard across the industry.

 

Now logging long line time would be similar to logging instrument time. You can't long anymore than the actual airtime in the Journey Log or it would not make any sense. Now I have seen some of these pilots and there magic pencils, and it pisses me off. Airtime vs. flight time could equal up to in my opinion based on the 2005-02 policy letter 20-30% difference depending on the type of flying you are doing. which is significant for the lower time guys trying to meet hour requirements and insurance standards. So for the purpose of legalities, insurance, F&D's, Customer requirements, and many other reasons. There should be a standardization and clarification across the industry.

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I guess all the 100hr guys should get checked out to do all the maintenance ground runs so they can log the time to meet customers requirements.... $h!t even throw the longline on and they can say they have longline time! haha

 

I think somewhere in the CARs in interpretations for flight time it sates "for the purpose of taking off" if I remember correct. So I guess from 2005-2011 when the 2005-02 policy letter was in effect. If during that ground run they pick the machine up into the air and then logged a 0.1 airtime every ground run they could log flight time, but I doubt the company they are working for would appreciate that much.

 

Anyone know what has to be followed first the CARs or the Company ops manual if they contradict one another?

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