Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[AlphaMike]

NO!

Flight time is from FIRST LIFT OFF to LAST LANDING, air time is lift off to landing every time. So the statement from TC that FLIGHT TIME AND AIR TIME FOR SKID EQUIPPED HELICOPTERS IS THE SAME from Transport Canada is PATENTLY false!

They are NOT interpreting the regulations because they are not reading it.

Unfortunately they hold the ace in the end, but they really SHOULD conform to ICAO`s standard, rather than have different regions have different opinions on how this works. The US FAA even has an interpretation system where PROFESSIONAL lawyers look into the the regs, and give opinions that are binding onto the actual interpretation of the letter of the law.

I did see just this past month where a company is milking this Air time/Flight time thing to the max, in using AIR TIME as FLIGHT TIME in the flight and duty times. If they didn`t they`d have to crew out every 2 weeks...

But until certain people at TC actually let go their ego, and finally realize that THEY are not always right, then we will have this forever battle on interpretation.

As it says in the interpretation in the log book goes FLIGHT TIME...

 

I don't see how you think it's so black and white. Show me where in CARS it specifically says that flight time is from first lift off to last landing.

 

As has been posted many times, it simply says that flight time is "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

 

Now, show me where in the CARS I can find a definition of what a "flight" is. That is the crux of the problem, IMO.

 

If I take off from the airport and proceed to land at four different sites, leaving the machine running at each one, then return to the airport where I land and shut down the machine, my common sense thought is that I have just done five flights. And therefore I will record my flight time as the same as the air time I put in the aircraft logbook.

 

Under the same circumstances, I assume you would say that you have just completed one long flight, but with five legs. Fair enough, but show me where in CARS it says definitively that one interpretation of a "flight" is correct, while the other is wrong.

[Winnie]

"the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight."

 

For an airplane,

 

When the brakes are released and you move forward for the purpose of lifting off the first time, WITHOUT shutting the engine (s) off, until you land after stop and goes, touch and goes, circuits with low and over's, cross-countries to the next fields and back etcetera until you land, taxi to the hardstand, and get the chocks by the wheels and shut down, that is ONE flight as far as FLIGHT TIME is concerned.

 

For a skid-equipped helicopter, after the engines are started, the logging of time starts from you LIFT OFF the first time, same scenario, till you LAST set down, and then shut down.

 

IF you SHUT DOWN every landing, they are considered multiple flights, if you DO NOT shut down, they are considered ONE FLIGHT with MULTIPLE landings...
Can't really get any clearer than that really...
Cheers

H.

[__________]

 

I don't see how you think it's so black and white. Show me where in CARS it specifically says that flight time is from first lift off to last landing.

 

 

I would agree with you that the definition is definitely not black and white and left up to interpretations. But I would also define "flight" as every time you start and shut down and are required to fill out the journey logbook which could include multiple landings. Even fixed wing if you were to fly around to different airports on a training flights doing touch and goes or circuits it would be considered 1 flight until you complete full stop and shut down. But also I agree with Winnie's interpretations, and to support that argument I would say Transport Canada issues pilots licences regularly based on "flight time" in which most flight schools are not logging airtime for there students but some form of flight time, rotors turning, engine running, or however they may come up with flight time. But also Freewheel has dealt back and forth for the past almost 2 years and has letters stating that it is of TC opinion airtime and flight time are not the same. So I would lean more towards there should be a difference in the flight time and airtime for multiple landings.

 

So here is a scenario 2 friends were told by 2 different companies they worked for that after the cancellation of the 2005-02 policy letter that all pilots are to log flight time the same as airtime in accordance with the companies operations manual for personal logbooks, and flight and duty limitations. Now the Transport Canada approved COM's state essentially flight time is equal to airtime for skid equipped helicopters. But is it legal. what if a pilot was timing out every tour logging essentially airtime and got in an accident. Would the pilot and company be liable for pilot fatigue and flying over the actual flight limitations and possibly interpreting the CARs wrong, or would transport be liable with the confusion they have caused? I have heard that flying over the flight and duty regulations can equal big fines for both pilot and operator.

[Freewheel]

So Flight time and airtime for planes I believe works as.

 

Flight time - the moment the brakes are released and the airplane moves under its own power. (Taxiing)

Air time - the moment the tires come off the ground to when they touch again.

 

Running on the ground getting T&P’s in the green is not considered flight time.

 

A skid equipped helicopter, cannot move under it’s own power unless its in the air. So flight time and airtime would be considered the same.

 

A helicopter with wheels I guess could fall into the same category as an airplane for air time and flight time.

 

I think people are considering because the helicopter is running that it’s considered as moving under it’s own power. Sure things are turning but the helicopter is still sitting there and not moving.

 

To me moving under it’s own power would be the whole helicopter moves not just pieces of the machine.

I can't understand why people in our industry insist on comparing our operations to Fixed-Wing Operations. Our operations are drastically different and so are the associated rishazards and risks. When was the last time you saw fixed wing aircraft land and come to a comlete stop on muskeg, a slippery log, a river bottom, a mountain top, a beaver house or in deep snow? Each these landings could take place multiple times in one flight.

 

Also, the way we accomplish flight is completely different. When an airplane is stopped with engines running, there is virually no airflow accross it's airfoil. For a helicopter, the minute the blades start turning there is airflow across the airfoil (wings/blades) and some lift is being generated.

 

Here is what one industry stakeholder had to say about this very topic when I asked his opinion:

"Not all “fixed wing people”, at TC or in the industry, realize that when a helicopter’s main rotor is turning at 100%, the aircraft is at the same point that an aeroplane is at when it is way down the runway at the point of rotation. The wings have the necessary airspeed to become airborne. Pulling up on the collective has the same net result as pulling back on the elevator control. That is why you don’t see too many maintenance people conducting helicopter ground runups. I’m sure you are familiar with the possibility that even a gust of wind or downwash from another helicopter could change the runup situation dramatically. Or a sudden torque change while “light on the skids” or on an icy surface could result in a “ground manoeuvre”. As Neil MacDonald clearly points out in his article, for you it means that there is a recognizable amount of time leading up to the point of liftoff in a helicopter, in the same way that there is time in getting an aeroplane to the point of rotation, and if that time is credited to an aeroplane pilot’s experience, it should also be credited to a helicopter pilot’s experience. I don’t know, but I suspect that was the thinking of the folks at ICAO when they formulated their definition of flight time."

 

I would suggest that applying fixed wing interpretations to the helicopter industry does nothing to identify the real hazards and risks that are particular to our industry. In my opinion, this Flight Time = Air Time theory was dreamed up by someone who was applying fixed wing mentality to canadian helicopter operations. Not only does this not make sense, it is contrary to the priciples of SMS.

 

Here is an exert from article about SMS that was recently published in the Ottawa Sun:

"To many, SMS tis a safety step forward.

“You’re inspecting the operator at a higher level,” says Bill Voss, who recently left his post as president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Virginia to return to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration as an executive in aviation safety.

“You’re got regulators forcing operators to step up and to really demonstrate an understanding of their operation and their risks, as opposed to looking at all the minutiae — the quality of your logbook entries; do you have proper training records? Those things are important on some level but are not nearly as significant as forcing the operator to show you that they’re competent and able to manage their risks.”

[helicopterjim]

Just want y'all to know I did the logbook tonight and I put flight time and airtime in there ...... and it had nothing to do with anything posted on this thread.

 

.... and I feel good!

[HeliRico]

Just want y'all to know I did the logbook tonight and I put flight time and airtime in there ...... and it had nothing to do with anything posted on this thread.

 

 

.... and I feel good!

 

 

Like a shower .. i know !!

[helicopterjim]

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[MEOB]

 

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Now that's funny right there!!

I just noticed that there's 23 pages talking about this always seemed straight forward to me. What I charge the guy (gen on to gen off) and what I put in the AC log book( the time the AC is actualy in the air) Who gives a #### what you put in your personal log book. I guess unless your the mines bigger type!

[Freewheel]

Agreed. Funny ####. Sent to QA manager immediately.

[helicopterjim]

Now that's funny right there!!

I just noticed that there's 23 pages talking about this always seemed straight forward to me. What I charge the guy (gen on to gen off) and what I put in the AC log book( the time the AC is actualy in the air) Who gives a #### what you put in your personal log book. I guess unless your the mines bigger type!

 

Wholy crap ... somebody else actually gets it? Thank you!