Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[skullcap]

I think you are misinterpreting confusion, for simple disagreement on what to do. Read the posts with an open mind and then put yourself in TC's shoes,,,,what would your policy be? Than after that policy has been instituted imagine how may may or may not follow it based upon the opinions in the posts. Would you actually have accomplished your goal?

 

Bottom line, the customer has to have the knowledge to pay the bill according to how the helicopter is used, ie: skids up skids down, you cannot simply charge the customer by what manner you want without their knowledge.

[Freewheel]

Sorry, I should have said most viewed in "General Helicopter Operations". Feliks has you beat over in "The lounge".

[Skidz]

Bottom line, the customer has to have the knowledge to pay the bill according to how the helicopter is used, ie: skids up skids down, you cannot simply charge the customer by what manner you want without their knowledge.

 

Actually Skully, it has nothing to do with that. An operator is free to charge for their time in whatever way they agree to do so with their customer. Seen a lot of jobs charged other than by the hour (like seismic for example). Does anyone really even look at "tarif" anymore ?

 

I've seen a lot of different billing methods from one company to another, and that's ok as far as I'm concerned. But I agree with Freewheel that we need a level playing field as far as how hours are calculated. If I'm booking air time in my logbook and another guy is booking ICAO (start to shutdown), I'm getting short-changed. My hours progress slower than the other guy, and therefore so does my access to those jobs with higher minimums and better pay.

 

If we were all to log ICAO, then low-timers would reach mins all that much faster, and that's fine for basic forestry and lease-to-lease oil & gas. Everyone knows that for more complex jobs, any reputable operator will train & assess the pilot's skills before sending them on a job that requires a specific skill set.

[Freewheel]

I think you are misinterpreting confusion, for simple disagreement on what to do. Read the posts with an open mind and then put yourself in TC's shoes,,,,what would your policy be? Than after that policy has been instituted imagine how may may or may not follow it based upon the opinions in the posts. Would you actually have accomplished your goal?

 

Bottom line, the customer has to have the knowledge to pay the bill according to how the helicopter is used, ie: skids up skids down, you cannot simply charge the customer by what manner you want without their knowledge.

 

Transport Canada's policy is already written, it's called the CARs. What these posts say should have no bearing on their current regulatory requirements. If we are talking about a future amendment; then certainly stakeholders should be heard from.

 

If I am Transport Canada, I deal with this issue like any other systemic issue that arises; with a short term and long term corrective actions. You know the way they claim they handle issues on their web site. The same way they ask your organization to correct known systemic issues and findings...

 

Of course, you first need to be accountable and acknowledge the issue, then complete a root cause analysis. long term corrective actions should be against the root cause. A good place to start with the short term corrective actions would be to resind the invalid findings against operators (which led to this discussion).

[R0T0R]

I agree Freewheel. The hose is dead and beaten to a bloody pulp and we are where we started. I hope TC will pull their act together soon but I doubt it.

 

R

[helicopterjim]

We could all go back to what we were doing before .... logging what we want, charging what we want and ignoring TC ...it has worked quite well since flying started.

[skullcap]

Ha, ha,,,

 

So freewheel(is that a Freudian slip)...what is the root cause of the issue of which you speak?

[Freewheel]

Do you expect me to do everything for them? According to Yves Lemieux the root cause to the flight time confusion is the statement they circulated in the 90's. I suspect it's linked to the much larger issue of regional disparity.

 

All I know it is not industries job to conduct root cause analysis' on issues that originate from within the regulators organization. Is it my responsibility to ensure the laws are enforced equally accross Canada? I think not! That ultimately falls on The Minister of Transport, through her deputy and TC.

 

I have enough on my plate dealing with my own on-house responsibilities...now you want me to be TC as well?

[Freewheel]

If I had to guess it's related to systems failures and organizational structure...but I am not privy to the inner workings of TC...who knows...maybe it's a "personnel" issue. The fact is, pilots, operators and inspectors are unclear about minimum regulatory requirements...

[skullcap]

Ya you may be right.

 

But my opinion is that if you are learning how to fly a helicopter and once you finish your license with 83 actual flight hours and 100 hours that are paid for may be how the so called confusion(I don't think anyone is confused by the way) starts. It then becomes the norm. Thus when I say the customer has to know how they are being billed it begins with the student. If when you begin your flight lessons you are told that the manner you are billed is different then what is being put into the journey log, but you can log your hours in the same fashion that is being billed, begins the cycle of corruption. I do not agree with this at all and have yet to hear a valid argument for a pilot to log hours while sitting on the ground idling.

 

That is ground school as far as am concerned.

 

If the instructor does not agree with this as he is sitting in the ship and responsible for it, then perhaps a rate which is equitable for the instructor and student should be charged but hardly doubt this happens, is much easier to get full pop for the machine and on it goes.

 

The pilot sitting at a lease site idling should be getting paid for sure, they are responsible for the ship and the risks associated with dealing with a running aircraft. Logging in a logbook as flight time, ah no.

 

I kinda think that the day you can convince TC that a pilot can log the same hours that the customer is billed but differ from the journey log flight hours(even if some are doing it now) will be the day a certain hot spot gets cold,,,but just mho is all.

 

And I do understand that this is supposed to be about flight time versus air time...but really.