Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Helilog56]

To add to this...in my world of overseas work in different countries, some of our customers use RIM (Rotors In Motion)......:0

[Freewheel]

Golden_Pilot

 

I tried to quite your post but the page wouldn't let me...

 

the thing is, the ICAO definition that the CARS are based on specifically states that (I'll paraphrase) Flight Time is from an AIRCRAFT moves under OWN POWER, so for a wheeled helicopter, when it starts wheeled taxi, or lifts up, or for a SKID EQUIPPED helicopter from when it lifts up THE FIRST TIME, till it stops for the last time, either wheels stop moving, or skids touch down. AIR TIME is ONLY time physically in the air.

 

Just because of the confusion initially created by Matt Millar and the rest of the guys in Transport that were responsible for writing the basis of the ops manual that most companies use today, we are today arguing on who's right and wrong, when in all actual fact, TC screwed the pooch by stating that Annual training should be based on AIR TIME...

 

This has led to this mess, when a simple look back at the original ICAO document that the CARs definition were based on, would set things straight. Instead we have a bunch of TC officials trying to argue and interject THEIR opinion based on the words of Matt Millar et al.

 

But, since they have made it this way, and refuse to set things straight, we will continue this argument for years.

 

Cheers

H.

(not confused)

Does anyone know when the last time Canada (as a member state) was audited by ICAO?

 

I think it was 2005. Hhmmm...the same year GAPL 2005-02 came out. I have always wondered about the timing of that letter...coincidence?

[Freewheel]

Oh and skullcap, just to be clear this isn't personal. I really have absolutely no idea who you are (or which company you work for)...maybe our paths will cross on fires this summer (when provincial boundaries Mean nothing - or that is the case in Ontario anyway)

[Golden_pilot]

Winnie,

 

Wikipedia’s definition of flight

 

Flight is the process by which an object moves, through an atmosphere (especially the air) or beyond it (as in the case of spaceflight), by generating aerodynamic lift, propulsive thrust, aerostatically using buoyancy, or by ballistic movement, without direct support from any surface.

 

Cars definition of flight time

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

CARS definition of airtime

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

 

All right now lets look at these.

 

Wheeled helicopter starts its flight by rolling on its wheels (propulsive thrust), so now they have flight time recording since they are moving. They taxi out to the runway and lift off into the air (aerodynamic lift) now they are recording airtime.

 

Skid equipped helicopter lifts off the ground (aerodynamic lift), which starts flight time and airtime. It lands now the flight is over/done/no more aerodynamic lift. But it’s left running to be hot refueled or say cargo unloaded. It lifts back up into the air this would be flight number 2 for the day.

 

CARS says “the flight” not “multiple flights”.

 

 

[Golden_pilot]

So in other words recording the time in between multiple flights even thou the helicopter is still running is wrong IMO.

[Winnie]

Nope, you are incorrect.

 

The definition as it stands is per start. So if you shut down it is then the start of another flight, if you maintain rotors turning and lift off again, it is still the same flight, just like an airplane landing taxiing ALL the way back to take off again is also considered one flight.

 

It might be murky as you see it, but the ICAO definition is firm. IT even sais in the definition you cut and pasted "WITH RESPECT FOR KEEPING TECHNICAL RECORDS".

 

So flight time, individual starts MANY takeoffs and landing, Air times, individual take offs and landings.

[skullcap]

I thought Winnie that in fixed wing(since are quoting the taxiing stuff) they enter flights from say yyc to yqf as one flight, then even if kept running and return as another flight? Thus the difference is "rolling" time. The only fixed wing logs I have ever seen were that way but to be honest don't see many.

 

And the definitions which are directly quoted by Golden Pilot do NOT meantion anything about multiple flights or starts...hence is some folks belief that with skids there is no difference between the two meanings. It is a shame they did not leave the old definitions from air regs in place which if I remember correctly stated such. Is prolly why fellas like me don't get it.

 

And if 1 hour of air time is not enough but 3 hours of flight time is, then how much air time is that,,,,do one auto with the hydraulics off to off level landing with pedal stuck( this scenario was presented to me when I asked what the minimum length of time for a ppc,,,,,point was that if you cover the content you cover the content,,,not really the answer was looking for though ha ha.) = .1 then sit to 2.9 and discuss it....hmmmm a conumdrum. Cant you just do the 1 hour air time at minimum and how ever long that takes is how ever long it takes for flight time? Am being facetious sorry, but if folks want to jack the system it will not matter what is written, just take them longer to figure out a way to do so. But trust me, if you are sent to get 3 hours of flight time somewhere in a 407, you will be presented with 3 hours at full bubble,,,,plus fuel. Something your payable dept may not appreciate, where as 1 hour air time not so bad....many sides of the coin so to speak.

[MEOB]

So in other words recording the time in between multiple flights even thou the helicopter is still running is wrong IMO.

 

So in other words you don't like to make money for your self or the company. If the rotors are turning I'm getting payed its as simple as that. Its getting recorded for the flight ticket as revenue until they stop turning for a shut down. The time the AC is actually in the air will be recorded as Air time for the AC log book. Don't fly wheel equiped machines but I would probably use the same practice.

[Golden_pilot]

 

So in other words you don't like to make money for your self or the company. If the rotors are turning I'm getting payed its as simple as that. Its getting recorded for the flight ticket as revenue until they stop turning for a shut down. The time the AC is actually in the air will be recorded as Air time for the AC log book. Don't fly wheel equiped machines but I would probably use the same practice.

 

LOL, Really? I think any smart business person would agree which way will generate more money. Look back a couple posts and learn something. The only people coming out ahead are flight schools ripping new pilots off by charging them on the ground otherwise all it does is drive operation costs up for commercial operators. Which also most likely but not necessarily (company dependant) creates pilots being paid a lower wage because the company isn't generating the potential income. Oh and I will come out with more money at the end of my tour if I time out...

[Freewheel]

LOL, Really? I think any smart business person would agree which way will generate more money. Look back a couple posts and learn something. The only people coming out ahead are flight schools ripping new pilots off by charging them on the ground otherwise all it does is drive operation costs up for commercial operators. Which also most likely but not necessarily (company dependant) creates pilots being paid a lower wage because the company isn't generating the potential income. Oh and I will come out with more money at the end of my tour if I time out...

 

Thank you golden...that's the exact post I expected would pop up eventually. Obviously a pilot/ organization that uses Flight Time = Air time is benefitting under the law compared to those using the latest interpretation offers by the Director of Standards , Chief of Standards and Associate Director of Operation Ontario East.

 

IMO, smart business people evaluate risk when considering these issues. What will happen if you have an accident and the investigators don't agree with you and they find you are over flight time limits in CARs? That extra money won't be nearly enough...

 

What do you have to back up your beliefs on how flight tine shall be calculated? We have an official response we from the director if standards. And before you say the statement in your COM, check the front page which says that in the event of conflict with the Regulations, the regulations prevail. Also, compliance with the regs is ultimately the responsibility of the PIC, so you'll lijely be hung out to dry by your employer unless they can prove management was telling to you log as such in your limits(even then you are responsible).

TC certainly won't back you up; they will absolve themselves of responsibility and state "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

 

No confusion here, eh?