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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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Reply to Mr. Yearwood:

 

Understood...but just so you know most pilots and operators are currently logging 0.6 hours air time for this example in the Journey log. I'm under the impression that this is what manufacturers consider as air time when developing TBOs.

 

Many are also logging 0.6 flight time when calculating their times against the flight time limits in CARS 700.15. I think that when discussing fatigue and flight limits a pilot should be logging the time at the controls.

 

At our organization we train that it should be 1.2 flight time and 0.6 air time. This was done under the direction of the associate regional director and director of standards, J. booth. The director of standards is also the co-chair of the committee who developed the recently proposed Flight Time and duty Time regulations. If flight time under 700.15 can currently be more than 100% different from one pilot/operator to the next...I'd say there is a problem.

 

We've even created an SOP which they reviewed.

 

If you're interested in the industry wide confusion you should have a look at the following vertical forum. With over 46000 views it's the most viewed forum and with 350+ comments it from pilots across the country, I think it demonstrates the confusion I'm talking about.

 

http://forums.verticalmag.com/index.php?showtopic=19518&page=1

 

The confused pilot who started the forum also copied and pasted the text from GAPL 2005-02.

 

Regardless of who's right...I'd say this industry wide confusion is a hazard.

 

We are considering reporting this issue through SECURITAS.

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Reply from Mr. Yearwood:

 

Part of the problem is that the Q1 example is not the real world. More common is the 20 min 0.3 and the 21 min 0.4. I'm sure if it's revenue the ‎20 becomes 21 and if it's non revenue the 21 becomes 20. From my point of view that works out in favor of the components because the time is jacked up more than down. Don't forget it's all about making sure maintenance is done before failure. That's all TC should be concerned with. If you prove that operators are not logging enough time, that's a big hazard. Doing it differently is no hazard if the time logged is never less than the designer expected.

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Reply to Mr. Yearwood

 

I can assure you Q1 is real world. A quick check of the CYMO Timmins radio logs will verify this.

 

Granted these flights are shorter than usual, Industry wide, flights like this are not uncommon. I've done many jobs that had 100 or more landings per day- Many of which were with my skids firmly on the bottom of a river bed.

 

A flight at Niagara Falls is about 8 minutes I believe.

 

In any case, my TC approved air time monitoring equipment is logging my air time in this same fashion (down to the minute and expressed in 10ths if an hour). It calculates the air time the same way whether it's 21 minutes or 4 minutes.

 

I also disagree that the only thing TC should be concerned about is premature mechanical failure.

 

While you only seem concerned about air time and airworthiness, my concern lies more with their interpretation of Flight time which is used in numerous CARs requirements (from licensing to to personal log books to flight time requirements under 700.15).

 

As I'm sure you aware, TCs latest initiatives also seem to indicate they are concerned about fatigue and Flight time limits.

 

TCs own words found in a Notice of Proposed Amendment which included reducing flight time limits (from 150 hrs/30 days to 112 hours/28 days)

 

"An important statistic to be aware of is that in the period of 1 January 2002 to 5 July 2012, accidents involving aircraft operating under CARs subpart 704 (commuter operations), 702 (aerial work) and 703 (air taxi operations) together accounted for 94% of all commercial air accidents and 95% of commercial air fatalities. A majority of these accidents have human performance related cause factors (i.e.: judgement or decision making). It is a fact that human performance is impaired by fatigue. This is not to say that all of these human performance related accidents are caused by fatigue, but it is a reasonable assumption to assume that fatigue is a contributing factor. A 90 hour work week or multiple consecutive 90 hour work weeks are not acceptable given the current fatigue science. A closer look at many of the aviation accidents in the past five years shows that in 70-90% of these events – pilot decision making played a role. When a pilot is fatigued decision making is also affected and is therefore a contributing cause to aviation accidents."

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Email sent to Mr. Yearwood

 

Hi bill,

Sorry to be a pain. I can assure you I appreciate your willingness to take part in this discussion. I'm not trying to argue, just glad to have an open and honest debate to help clear confusion.

 

One last question that I meant to add to my last email; get back to me next week if you prefer...no rush.

 

From what I understand you are a commercially licences Heli pilot.

 

Did you receive 100 hrs air time when you got your licence?

 

I know I didn't. Most student pilots in the country receive 100 hours flight time which is a figure that differs from what most Flight training units logs as the air time in the JLB.

 

How us that possible if in every case flight time = air time in skid equipped helicopters?

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Reply from Mr. Yearwood

 

Yes ‎I am a helicopter pilot with an ATR and a Class 1 instructor rating. I did a 50 hour commercial endorsement and it was all flight time. I spent my 40 year career first at Niagara Falls then Northern Quebec and NFLD. Then‎ operations in South America before returning to Canada as company check and training pilot. After spending several years Heli.- logging and heavy lifting construction, I did a stint of Medevac and Corporate flight Ops using wheeled helicopters. I then joined TC as an Air Carrier inspector and flight test examiner. During that time I went to Ottawa where I wrote the CARs.....for 702 and the helicopter 703 & 704. I moved into a regional director position ‎in TC before moving to the TSB. With about 11000 hours in helicopters I have only logged air time. Flight time only differed in my fixed wing flying.

To be honest after several years of flying over 1000 a year, my concern for accurate logging was and still is to make sure the machine I have strapped to my *** is well maintained.

Fatigue tracking is very important and there are several variables. Time spent in the air is important to consider because of reduced O2 and increased vibrations. Men‎tal and physical effort varies a lot. Heli logging and IFR helicopter without and auto pilot, top the chart. Rotors turning when firmly planted on the ground is no more taxing than driving. Bottom line assessing ones fatigue is not an exact science. ATC controllers make more mistakes during slow traffic times. After spending 5 hours in a bike race I am physically exhausted but wound up mentally. Less likely to forget something.

To say the least, times change and bureaucracy gets in the way of simple systems.

Cheers,

Bill

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Thanks Bill. I agree that bureaucracy can get in the way of simple systems.

 

I hope you understand that as an operator and pilot i am just trying weed through the bureaucracy and provide simple understandable systems for my pilots and ensure we are competitive, safe and compliant with what the regulations actually state.

 

I also hope we can both agree that this confusion is a hazard on many different levels.

 

Have a nice weekend,

Cheers,

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“flight time”

“flight time” means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

While the rotors are turning on startup, some would say that the "aircraft" as a whole has not moved yet for the "purpose of taking off" and therefore the flight time does not start until the "aircraft" takes off. The rotors have moved but the aircraft has not. The same on landing at the end of the flight. The "aircraft" comes to rest once it has landed.

I believe that fixed wing only count flight time when the aircraft is taxiing not when the engines start.

Just my "interpretation"

Thanks for taking part Torque Split.

Just so we clearly understand your position, would you be kind enough to answer the 2 multiple choice questions I'm circulating?

 

FYI I've added a "Rotors Stopped" Time. As Brian Jenner pointed out, it is required to determine Helicopter Flight Time under the ICAO definition. Perhaps, you'd like to offer an answer now as well Brian...your participation is appreciated. Thank you.

 

Q1. A pilot flies a Bell 206 Jet Ranger between CYMO (Moosonee Airport) and the Lagoon Heliport (Moose Factory Island) and makes the following entries in his pilot flight log.

Time up is the moment his skids leave the earth’s surface and Time down is the moment his skids make contact with the earth’s surface at the next landing.

 

Engine Start Time/Blades turning: 754

 

Time Up Time Dn Air Time Starts Comments

800 804 4 min 1 CYMO – Lagoon

809 812 3 min 0 Lagoon – CYMO

816 819 3 min 0 CYMO – Lagoon

822 825 3 min 0 Lagoon – CYMO

829 833 4 min 0 CYMO – Lagoon

838 841 3 min 0 Lagoon – CYMO

844 847 3 min 0 CYMO – Lagoon

850 853 3 min 0 Lagoon – CYMO

855 858 3 min 0 CYMO – Lagoon

904 909 5 min 0 Lagoon – CYMO

 

Shutdown @ 912. Rotors Stopped @ 914

A1. For the above entries: The pilots calculated Flight Time and Air Time respectively, should be:

 

a. Flight Time = 1.3 / Air Time = 0.6

b. Flight Time = 0.6 / Air Time = 0.6

c. Flight Time = 1.2/ Air Time = 0.6

d. Flight Time = 1.3 / Air Time = 1.3

e. Flight Time = 1.3/ Air Time 1.0

f. Flight Time = 1.2 / Air Time = 1.2

g. Flight Time = 1.2/ Air Time 1.0

h. Flight Time = 0.7/ Air Time = 0.6

i. Other: Flight Time = / Air Time =

 

Q2. A pilot flies a Bell 206 Jet Ranger from CYCN to CYTS with no landings enroute. He makes 1 landing at his destination and shuts down the helicopter.

He makes the following entries in his pilot flight log.

Time up is the moment his skids leave the earth’s surface and Time down is the moment his skids make contact with the earth’s surface at the next landing.

 

Engine Start Time/Blades turning: 754

 

Time Up Time Dn Air Time Starts Comments

800 824 24 min 1 CYCN – CYTS

 

Engine Shut Down @ 830; Rotors stopped @ 831

 

A2. For the above entries: The pilots calculated Flight Time and Air Time respectively, should be:

 

a) Flight Time = 0.4 / Air Time = 0.4

b)Flight Time = 0.6/Air Time = 0.4

c) Flight Time = 0.5 / Air Time = 0.4

d) Flight Time = 0.4 / Air Time = 0.3

e) Other: Flight Time = / Air Time =

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If there are any industry stakeholders who would prefer not to respond on this forum, send me a private message with an e-mail address and I'll forward you the email we are circulating so you can respond.

 

Thanks again

Fly safe

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Here is something to consider that was brought to my attention by a respondent.

 

Does anyone feel that Air time isn't 0.6 in Q1?

 

The respondent feels that a pilot using 0.6 for the air time in this example is understating the actual air time. He is concerned that this will lead to premature failure of components and that the manufacturers TBOs are based on some other method. He states: "Don't forget it's all about making sure maintenance is done before failure. That's all TC should be concerned with. If you prove that operators are not logging enough time, that's a big hazard. Doing it differently is no hazard if the time logged is never less than the designer expected...If the rules change, the TBOs need to change. ‎Use needs to match design."

 

The answer this respondent provided was flight time = 1.0 air time = 1.0.

 

He also states: In every case for a skid type helicopter flight time and air time are equal.

 

Comments?

Bell 205 A-1 Maintenance Manual, Volume 1

 

5-5 Definitions

 

Operating time - Time required to be recorded in historical record sheets or helicopter logs. Operating time to be recorded may be identified as follows:

•Time in service - Time from the moment a helicopter leaves the surface of the earth until it touches down at the next point of landing. Time during which the engine and rotor are turning with the helicopter on the ground is not taken into account.

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