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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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Think I lost track of what this is all about!! Im just a simple pilot of 15 years am I missing something??

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https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/commerce-circulars-ac0202r-1659.htm

 

CBAACNo. 0202R states:

 

2. For the purposes of the Canada Labour Code, Part II, an aircraft is in operation from the time it first moves under its own power, for the purpose of taking off from a Canadian or foreign place of departure, until it comes to rest at the end of its flight to its first destination in Canada. [subsection 128(5)]

 

The Transport Canada Aviation Occupational Health and Safety program position in this regard is that "aircraft in ground, or in the air. Therefore, an aircraft is considered to be "in operation" anytime it is flying in Canada or abroad, as well as anytime the aircraft doors are closed and the aircraft is moving on the ground, under its own power, for the purposes of taking-off or landing. An aircraft is not considered to be "in operation" when it is stationary on the ground, in Canada or abroad, either before, after, or between flights.

 

Sound familiar? Its the exact same terminology used in the Flight Time definition.

 

CARS 101

AIR TIME: with respect to keeping technical records is defined as, the time from the moment the aircraft leaves the earths surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing

 

FLIGHT TIME: means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

 

For the interpretation being offered (Flight Time = Air Time) to work, it must be a fact that a Skid equipped helicopter cannot move under its own power until it Leaves the earths surface; but it must also be true that Comes into contact with the earths surface at the next point of landing means the same as comes to rest at the end of the Flight.

 

Therefore, under that very same thinking: whenever a pilot (in a skid equipped helicopter) lands throughout the flight, employees on board

the aircraft are not covered under Aviation Occupational Health and Safety.

 

Also worth noting that a Pilot in Command is not actually a Pilot in Command during that period on the ground and therefore would not be responsible for many of the responsibilities assigned to PIC (during that time on the ground)..

 

Definition of PIC from Aeronautics Act:

pilot-in-command means, in relation to an aircraft, the pilot having responsibility and authority for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time;

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Perhaps this issue would be better addressed by an Occupational Health and Safety Officer under the Minister of Labour. It is clearly under their jurisdiction when the aircraft is not moving (and employees are at risk from fatigue in the air and on the ground)

 

There's also a duty to report hazardous and dangerous situations.

 

Maybe they'd have a better understanding that inconsistent logging of Flight Time is a hazard (as it relates to licensing, minimum training requirements and Fatigue).

 

I think they would expect that most Transport Truck Operators that share the road with our loved ones should not be allowed to log their driving time differently depending on who they work for. That would be ridiculous. I don't see how this is any different.

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Think it's a little different than driving a truck. If a pilot gets him self in over his head cause he "logged time the wrong way" I'd look at the operator for failing to properly acess his pilots capability for said training requirements, fatigue or the skill level to accomplish a required task. Personal log book hours shouldn't ever play a role in determining a skill set or required training for the very reason that it's just a simple book that is not regulated worth a dam and pilots can pretty much pad them as they see fit to try to benefit them selves.

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Think it's a little different than driving a truck. If a pilot gets him self in over his head cause he "logged time the wrong way" I'd look at the operator for failing to properly acess his pilots capability for said training requirements, fatigue or the skill level to accomplish a required task. Personal log book hours shouldn't ever play a role in determining a skill set or required training for the very reason that it's just a simple book that is not regulated worth a dam and pilots can pretty much pad them as they see fit to try to benefit them selves.

Do you give the same level of importance to the times when you're logging them against the Flight Time limits in CARs 700.15? CARs clearly states that a pilot shall be deemed Fatigued when he reaches any flight time limit. While you are discussing "padding" your hours, what about those who may be underrepresenting their hours?

 

And...if you work at 3 different companies with 3 different procedures for logging flight time, how can any company maintain the integrity of their system to track pilots times against limits (as req'd by CARS)?

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see the following link to an appeal case from the Occupational Health and Safety Tribunal. This case is not a helicopter case, however, it has striking similarities to the issue we are discussing. In the event of a fatal accident, I suspect a direction like the one in this case, from an OHS Inspector, could have significant ramifications. From what we have seen, depending on which inspector you talk to, this could be a real possibility. I assume this would also be used in Civil Litigation after the fact.

 

Here's the tribunal decision in its entirety:

http://www.ohstc.gc.ca/eng/content/html_archive/decisions2015/ohstc-15-009.shtml

 

The pilot only logged air time in a float plane and didn't include taxi time on water when logging flight time. After his fatal crash they determined he was over the CARs limits and tried to blame the operator for allowing this danger to exist.

 

I should also point out, that we have clearly demonstrated that difference between Flight Time and Air Time in a skid equipped helicopter (when using the Director of Standards interpretation or ICAO) is often significantly higher than most “Fixed wing” operations.

 

Here is the TSB report:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11w0048/a11w0048.asp

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https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/commerce-circulars-ac0202r-1659.htm

 

CBAACNo. 0202R states:

 

2. For the purposes of the Canada Labour Code, Part II, an aircraft is in operation from the time it first moves under its own power, for the purpose of taking off from a Canadian or foreign place of departure, until it comes to rest at the end of its flight to its first destination in Canada. [subsection 128(5)]

 

The Transport Canada Aviation Occupational Health and Safety program position in this regard is that "aircraft in ground, or in the air. Therefore, an aircraft is considered to be "in operation" anytime it is flying in Canada or abroad, as well as anytime the aircraft doors are closed and the aircraft is moving on the ground, under its own power, for the purposes of taking-off or landing. An aircraft is not considered to be "in operation" when it is stationary on the ground, in Canada or abroad, either before, after, or between flights.

 

Sound familiar? Its the exact same terminology used in the Flight Time definition.

 

CARS 101

AIR TIME: with respect to keeping technical records is defined as, the time from the moment the aircraft leaves the earths surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing

 

FLIGHT TIME: means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

 

For the interpretation being offered (Flight Time = Air Time) to work, it must be a fact that a Skid equipped helicopter cannot move under its own power until it Leaves the earths surface; but it must also be true that Comes into contact with the earths surface at the next point of landing means the same as comes to rest at the end of the Flight.

 

Therefore, under that very same thinking: whenever a pilot (in a skid equipped helicopter) lands throughout the flight, employees on board

the aircraft are not covered under Aviation Occupational Health and Safety.

 

Also worth noting that a Pilot in Command is not actually a Pilot in Command during that period on the ground and therefore would not be responsible for many of the responsibilities assigned to PIC (during that time on the ground)..

 

Definition of PIC from Aeronautics Act:

pilot-in-command means, in relation to an aircraft, the pilot having responsibility and authority for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time;

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I expect that most employees (like a medic on-board perhaps) travelling in your aircraft expect that their pilots are held to a consistent minimum standard and their pilots act with some level of professionalism.

 

And what about when multiple a/c from multiple operators are flying in limited visibility and close proximity, like say a forest fire? Shouldn't those pilots be held to the same minimum standards? I bet the fire fighters on board expect that to be the case.

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CARS 101

AIR TIME: with respect to keeping technical records is defined as, the time from the moment the aircraft leaves the earths surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing

 

FLIGHT TIME: means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.

 

The term "Leaving the earth's surface" is obviously different from "moves" and the term "comes into contact with the surface" is obviously different from "comes to rest".

 

The fact that the two definitions use different terms only reinforces the basic legislative principle establishing that "The Legislator" does not speak for nought; which in the case of "flight time" vs "air time" make the two definitions logically and legally different.

 

If TC does want's to ignore logic and law to impose obviously flawed interpretation, without offering some logical and legally sound explanation, then operators and pilots have no choice but to do what they are told or contest TC's ilicit interpretation of the CARs definitions for "flight time" vs "air time".

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Of course, I wouldn't expect labour Canada to take my word that this inconsistency exists.

 

I could just direct them to this forum.

 

Then there's the TC correspondence that acknowledges the inconsistencies and the National Association that represents 80% of all operators in the country.

 

From this weeks HAC communique:

 

Air Time & Flight Time — National Interpretation Looming Share on FacebookTwitterShare on LinkedinE-mail article

 

There has recently been some considerable discussion between one of our Operator-Members and their Region on the subject of Air Time and Flight Time in helicopters, and how they should be recorded in the Journey Log, but also how Flight Time should be recorded in a Pilot's Personal Log Book. The issue is critically important – for the calculation of maintenance-related items, but also with respect to the recording of Revenue Time and for the purpose of calculating Flight Time Limits, and Flight Time for Licensing purposes.

 

We are aware that there is considerable disagreement – both between Regions and within Regions on this subject, and HAC is becoming engaged in the discussion, with a view to developing an industry position on this important subject.

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