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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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Its very simple why is everyone including transport Canada making it confusing..

 

Flight time starts when you hit the starter and the blades start to turn,,you are now in control of an operational helicopter. The flight ends when you turn engine off on the ground and the blades are costing to a stop.

 

Air time is the time you are in the air,,,skids or wheels up to skids or wheels down. If you are doing a toe in you are holding power and thus still flying. If you are sitting on the ground at 100% waiting for 6 min for customers to load or unload you are not flying and thus would/should subtract a .1 from your air time.

 

Bill the customer Flight time,and log it as such , the log book shows AIR time and that is what is used to determine the life of components. (It is the time they are under Stress ) The customer and your personal log book should always be billed and recorded on the FLIGHT time number.

The difference between flight and air time goes to the benefit of the operator to recover his low rate on the contract against his operational costs. Except if you are Helisking where the ******** demand to be billed on AIR time,,but that is another subject.

 

I agree with you, but it doesn't sounds like Transport does, and that's a major issue.

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I agree with you, but it doesn't sounds like Transport does, and that's a major issue.

 

The problem with Transport is they still base all these regs on fix wing operations(Straight from the mouth of a Transport Inspector). They forget that most of use are not working off an airport where our flight and air time are only .2 of a difference. Most of us are landing multiple times in a 1hr period. I'm currently on a job where we are only working in a 5 mile radius where taking off and landing 20 times in a hour is common. So ya the flight time and air time are quite a bit different. BUT we are paid for flight time and I'm paid for flight time. Why am I or any of us going to work an 8hr day only to be paid for 6.5? If transport only wants us to track, log and bill for air time then not only should operators rates go up but also the pilots, engineers etc. There's so many factors that play into to the difference in flight and air time. Say you have a crew change at the drill, takes 18 minutes to do but only 7 minutes of air time because of the cross shift talking to one another. Does that mean you and the operator only get paid for a .1? The cost to start it plus the rins or cycles on the machine plus paying the crew far exceeds the revenue for that flight. The only way to recover that cost is to charge flight time. As for logging Flight time vs air time in your own records, who cares! Do whatever you want. If your trying to pad your book to make it look like you have more hrs then you do, well guess what, when your CP or Ops Manager does your ride, he will be able to tell whether your lying or not.

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Isn't this a muddled bunch of attitudes and opinions - many, if not all, of which are based on the country-wide experience of TC inspectors giving their, or their Region's, 'interpretation' (defined as "I don't know and I don't know who does, so you'll use this!")

 

The examples given of short flights interspersed with periods of varying duration on the ground, running at idle or 100%, HAVE to be included in what you LOG and what you CHARGE. Customers have every right to impose safety constraints on us, but NO right to tell us what constitutes chargeable time and what doesn't, and the problem here isn't one of 'interpretation,' it's one of operators refusing to stand up to their customers because they're afraid they won't get the work.

 

If that's not true for you or your company then find a forum where the appropriate discussion can take place (and, yes, HAC should be such a place because you're not talking about 'fixing' prices or limiting competition, you're talking about economic viability of this d**ned fool industry).

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Isn't this a muddled bunch of attitudes and opinions - many, if not all, of which are based on the country-wide experience of TC inspectors giving their, or their Region's, 'interpretation' (defined as "I don't know and I don't know who does, so you'll use this!")

 

The examples given of short flights interspersed with periods of varying duration on the ground, running at idle or 100%, HAVE to be included in what you LOG and what you CHARGE. Customers have every right to impose safety constraints on us, but NO right to tell us what constitutes chargeable time and what doesn't, and the problem here isn't one of 'interpretation,' it's one of operators refusing to stand up to their customers because they're afraid they won't get the work.

 

If that's not true for you or your company then find a forum where the appropriate discussion can take place (and, yes, HAC should be such a place because you're not talking about 'fixing' prices or limiting competition, you're talking about economic viability of this d**ned fool industry).

 

 

Remember a decade ago or so when working in Saskatchewan at the Husdon bay base. There was this moron by the name of Rocky that came to me and accused me of padding the time because I was charging from the time I hit the button. As far as I am concerned it takes a pilot to start and shut down the Helicopter.No? A day later the call came to go to a smoke... I jumped in and sat there! He said "what are you doing lets go" I replied "well I dont get paid to start the helicopter or shut it down so make arangments to sort that out and then I will gladly take over and do the work I am paid for.... Nuf said!~

 

P5

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Just use the airplane definitions.

 

When wings are moving through the air under their own power we have flight time.

 

When the skids/wheels leave the ground, we have air time.

 

When a helicopters blades start moving under engine power, we have wings moving through the air under their own power thus flight time.

 

When your skids leave the ground you have air time.

 

Works for me.

 

But, it seems like nothing is ever simple.

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Guest plumber

Just use the airplane definitions.

 

When wings are moving through the air under their own power we have flight time.

 

When the skids/wheels leave the ground, we have air time.

 

When a helicopters blades start moving under engine power, we have wings moving through the air under their own power thus flight time.

 

When your skids leave the ground you have air time.

 

Works for me.

 

But, it seems like nothing is ever simple.

 

That is probably as simple as can be explained, Nicely done.

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Sweet, sounds like I just gotta find a Cessna 152 that I can taxi around in circles for a 100 hrs, chat up the ATC girl a bit, and I'll get a pilot's licence!

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Sweet, sounds like I just gotta find a Cessna 152 that I can taxi around in circles for a 100 hrs, chat up the ATC girl a bit, and I'll get a pilot's licence!

So what your saying is that we are only liable from skids up to skids down? I guess if I hot start a machine or roll on to much throttle on an icey landing pad and ball it up I am free and clear of any blame.

 

Sweet! and here I was paying way to much attention when I didn't need to.

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