Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Freewheel]

Simple solution. Put an Air time and put a flight time portion in your personal log book. Let the lawyers try and argue that you lied in court over that one. Then the company is held responsible for what is what in terms of customer requirements. I put these 2 things in the journey log. Why not my personal log?

 

It's not rocket appliances.

Not necessarily a bad idea, but still doesn't fix the problem. Which figure do you provide when you are asked for your Flight Time? For instance when applying for licence or endorsement of a rating? If my region is telling me that I need x amount of hours of flight time (ICAO) and yours tells you that you need x amount if air time, we still have a problem. And what about calculating g flight/duty time records under 700.15/16? Which one do u use?

[Bacon Inbound]

No and he never has.

 

you are confused with a different pilot with the same nane...and I know for certain that the one you are referring to knows how to log flight time and air time consistently. Lol I've checked...

 

Gotcha.

 

Same name and same previous employer.

[Bacon Inbound]

If you read the report, you would know he went back to GSH.....

 

I read the report.

[Freewheel]

Meanwhile south of the border it appears they are having the same issues: confusion that originates from within the regulator. According to this thread FAA inspectors are advising some operators to change the procedure for logging "flight time" in their COM. Apparently, some inspectors are interpreting and enforcing the law contrary to the FAA headquarters interpretation there too.

 

I wonder if it's gotten so bad that some pilots don't know how to log "air time" anymore: (as is the case north of the border).

 

"Ye old flight time debate"

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/19846-ye-olde-flight-time-debate/page-1

[rotorheadrob]

If the blades are turning, Im earning. so once the machine is running, Im charging

 

If the disk is loaded or its off the ground it goes in the log book

 

As far as my personal log book, Well lets just say I may have misplaced that.

[Freewheel]

If the blades are turning, Im earning. so once the machine is running, Im charging

 

If the disk is loaded or its off the ground it goes in the log book

 

As far as my personal log book, Well lets just say I may have misplaced that.

Fair enough. Why not enlighten us:

 

What time goes in your daily Flight time records that your are required to keep under CARs 700.15?

Or do those records also not exist?

 

How about if you chose to do a 15 hr duty day and your air time is 8 but the time your billing (blades turning at the controls) is 10. Which one goes in your flight time/duty time records?

[Freewheel]

And the discussion continues in the US.

 

Sounds like the standard you're held to depends on which company you work for

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/20103-logging-pic-time-employers-rule/page-1#

[Freewheel]

"Unlike larger airports with control towers operating in controlled airspace, St. Thomas is uncontrolled. This means that you do not require a clearance from Air Traffic Control before taking off on a flight. ATC controlled airports such as London, Kitchener, and Buttonville can be quite busy at times and you may be sitting on the ground with the rotors turning waiting for a clearance to go flying. Why is this significant? Because all flight schools charge the student for flight time, which is the time the rotors are turning not the time you are actually in the air flying so your hard earned training dollar may be burning up along with the helicopter’s fuel waiting for that flight clearance."

http://centralhelicoptertraining.com/about-us/location/

 

 

[MEOB]

On 6/5/2017 at 9:25 AM, Freewheel said:

"Unlike larger airports with control towers operating in controlled airspace, St. Thomas is uncontrolled. This means that you do not require a clearance from Air Traffic Control before taking off on a flight. ATC controlled airports such as London, Kitchener, and Buttonville can be quite busy at times and you may be sitting on the ground with the rotors turning waiting for a clearance to go flying. Why is this significant? Because all flight schools charge the student for flight time, which is the time the rotors are turning not the time you are actually in the air flying so your hard earned training dollar may be burning up along with the helicopter’s fuel waiting for that flight clearance."

http://centralhelicoptertraining.com/about-us/location/

 

 

Which is how every pilot I know and companies  I've ever worked for charge. If the blades are turning I'm getting payed for the extra responsibility. As for the 15 hour duty day if I'm going to charge/fly/get flight pay for more than 8 hours well I'm not going to do the 15 hour duty day then simple as that. And again thats what goes on the flight ticket and my personal log book. This been going on that long I can't even remember why this question was being asked lol    

[Freewheel]

21 hours ago, MEOB said:

Which is how every pilot I know and companies  I've ever worked for charge. If the blades are turning I'm getting payed for the extra responsibility. As for the 15 hour duty day if I'm going to charge/fly/get flight pay for more than 8 hours well I'm not going to do the 15 hour duty day then simple as that. And again thats what goes on the flight ticket and my personal log book. This been going on that long I can't even remember why this question was being asked lol    

Wow I just noticed this forum has almost 85,000 views. Haven't checked in a while. That's unbelievable. How many Heli pilots are there in Canada anyway lol?

Pretty simple really.

According to TCs most recent interpretation from HQ "every pilot you know and every company you've ever worked for could be accused of not being in compliance with minimum CARs requirements". Apparently the same is true for most Flight Training Units. Maybe that's why there's so much traffic in this forum. I do know a few FTUs who provide licensing requirements as Air Time (because TC has told them they need to). Meanwhile others advertise otherwise on their website.

TC doesn't care how you or your company bills. It's not their concern.

What is supposed to be their concern, is how you log flight time with respect to personal logbooks, licensing requirements (CARs part 4), flight training requirements (as stated in your COM), Flight Time Duty Time Limits (CARs 700.15 and 700.16), Journey Logbooks and any other CARs which reference Flight Tine. Since the definition for flight time is a CARs 101 definition it applies to all subsequent CARs that reference flight time. TC inspectors have a legal responsibility to make findings and/or take enforcement action for any noncompliance they become aware if.

if you are really interested the TC interpretation in its entirety is in Page 52 of this forum. Here's an exert: 

"2. Skid-equipped helicopters do not ground taxi. Manoeuvring at an aerodrome at low speed and low altitude is referred to as “air taxi” or “hover taxi” depending on the aircraft altitude. In any event, all movement by a skid-equipped helicopter involves flight.

3. Air time commences when the helicopter lifts from the surface and continues to the point of landing. Flight time occurs when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of takeoff and continues until it comes to rest at the end of the flight. In a skid-equipped helicopter, takeoff and manoeuvring for takeoff are the same action. Landing and coming to rest at the end of a flight are also the same action. Taxi-time on the ground is non-existent.

Conclusion: As the CARs flight time definition does not apply to skid-equipped helicopter operations, the TC interpretation is that flight time equals air time for purposes of Journey Log entry requirements. Billing procedures, contractual considerations or data derived or developed for other purposes from the helicopter journey log entries is beyond the scope of this interpretation and is at the discretion of the operator."