Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Blackmac]

13 hours ago, Freewheel said:

I also beleive the True Cost to the operator includes several other costs than just the Direct Operating/maintenance costs of the aircraft. 

When I was with the private sector and bidding on contracts, I used the following criteria to establish an "hourly rate" or mileage rate:

Overhead %, Profit %, and daily minimums averaged over the duration of the contract or thirty days, whichever comes first.

                                                                                                OR

A fixed Monthly charge, no minimums, but a stated maintenance cost for a given hourly or mileage rate not to exceed eighty hours/month.

THIS OF COURSE DOES NOT COVER FUEL COSTS, HOUSING, COST OF PILOT/AME ROTATION, etc.

If the industry got together and quit trying to undercut each other and accepting "SHOTGUN" offers, things could get better. 

If you are not in the position to make a decent return on your investment, find something else to do.

The private sector is dictating to you how you will be paid and the accountants are running to many companies.

THE GOOD OLD DAYS PRIOR TO DEREGULATION (1987) WHEN TRANSPORT CANADA INTERFERED IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY, WHAT A F....KUP.

I THOUGHT THE AMERICANS WERE IDIOTS FOR VOTING TRUMP. I WONDER WHERE THAT LEAVES US WHEN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS COULDN'T 

CARE LESS WHAT TRANSPORT IS UP TO AND SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED FOR MALFEASANCE OR BE REPLACED. 

   

[Freewheel]

8 hours ago, Blackmac said:

 

If the industry got together and quit trying to undercut each other and accepting "SHOTGUN" offers, things could get better. 

 

   

If my aunt had nuts, she’d be my uncle lol

I guess that’s a no for answering the questions 

Also worth noting: a common theme with those that did respond that believed that Flight Tine = Air Time generally over logged on the air time....or at least according to the manufacturers who answered the very same survey questions.

[Blackmac]

20 hours ago, Freewheel said:

If my aunt had nuts, she’d be my uncle lol

I guess that’s a no for answering the questions 

Also worth noting: a common theme with those that did respond that believed that Flight Tine = Air Time generally over logged on the air time....or at least according to the manufacturers who answered the very same survey questions.

The reason I didn't answer the question was the fact that it is all "GARBAGE" and I would be joining the TC crowd that havn't got a clue on reality, "Flight means when you are in the AIR.  The aircraft taxing or idling on the ground for an hour waiting does not add any cost to the carrier (Fuel is normally billed separately or is provided).

Costs attributed to the carrier are wear and tear on the airframe (including tires), engine time and cycles on same when, in the "AIR", that is why accurate "Air Time' is entered in the Journey Log and Tech Log. As for the flight time in the journey log, it should be eliminated.

Mileage Rate: Calculated as mileage between A-B is converted into hours for log book entries. When aircraft are on patrol (Fisheries or Survey) "Hourly Rate" is used.

On any contract it is normal to have additional charges as negotiated between the Carrier and the Charterer.

NOW IS THAT DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND. 

 

[Freewheel]

I comprehend just fine BM.

Don’t mean to burst your bubble, but you actually sound an awful lot like TRANSPORT CANADA. Or at least headquarters in Ottawa.

When it comes to regional authorities and inspectors: it depends which one you ask.  Which is an issue. That’s  the only position I have. 

Fyi i have no issue making ends meet or covering COSTS. Consistent application and enforcement of the Regs relates to many areas of compliance and safety is reduced when they don’t fulfill their mandate of enforcing Regs consistently. I think we both agree on that.

[Blackmac]

9 hours ago, Freewheel said:

I comprehend just fine BM.

Don’t mean to burst your bubble, but you actually sound an awful lot like TRANSPORT CANADA. Or at least headquarters in Ottawa.

When it comes to regional authorities and inspectors: it depends which one you ask.  Which is an issue. That’s  the only position I have. 

Fyi i have no issue making ends meet or covering COSTS. Consistent application and enforcement of the Regs relates to many areas of compliance and safety is reduced when they don’t fulfill their mandate of enforcing Regs consistently. I think we both agree on that.

 

[Torque Split]

I don't think there has ever been a question as to what flying time has to be entered into the aircraft logbook.  Its called "Airtime" and its only when the skids are free of the ground.

The dilemma is; what does a pilot enter into his flight time as far as his Flight/Duty time entries and personal logbook?  They may have flown 10 hours (Air Time...Skids free) but may have been at the controls for 14 hours with the aircraft running (doing numerous takeoffs landings and waiting for the customer).  In which case the pilot will become fatigued much quicker than if he/she logged 10 hours for their flight/duty time.  Flight time (for Flight/Duty entries) should be the time at the controls from the first takeoff until final landing for the purpose of shutting down.

In my opinion, we should log air time (skids free) in our logbooks (aircraft and pilot) for all training requirements and licences.  This would also match the aircraft logs if anyone had to verify times. This would also ensure that companies would not have you enter a .7 or .8 into an aircraft logbook and a 1.0 flight time as the training time.   

My personal opinion

 

 

 

 

[Blackmac]

2 hours ago, Blackmac said:

 

I do believe Torque Split understands full well what is going on with the carrier logging the time as such, less time on the aircraft, to overhaul.

ISO 9001 is the international standard that specifies requirements for a quality management system (QMS). Organizations use the standard to demonstrate the ability to consistently provide products and services that meet customer and regulatory requirements. 

Should Transport Canada "Aviation" not be able to carry out their Mandate as such, why not create a Crown Corporation as was done with Nav Canada.

I originally worked on the RFP for privatizing the nav. system, it was over six hundred pages. Needless to say there were few responses as no operator could get insurance coverage.

Using ISO 9001 as an inspection agency, you would have a standard Safety Management System with input from Transport Canada  and the government supplying liability coverage. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Blackmac
and the

[Freewheel]

The question is what is the current minimum in standard as currently written in the CARs for licensing, personal logbooks and Flight time limits....not what you think they should be.

HQ Replied to the survey this week. As expected they refuse to respond to the questions or even discuss those requirements.

Given that the definition for flight time must be consistent throughout, then i’d Say under their interpretation a pilot requires 100 hrs Air Time for a Commervual licence; we know this isn’t happening at many many TC approved FTUs.

Pilots should be using air time only in personal logs. Also not happening with majority of pilots

Pilots should be using Air Time in Flight/Duty Time records required by 700.15 and 700.16. This means that companies who are doing it as per ICAO, would require less pilots to conduct contracts and fewer costly crew changes due to pilots reaching limits.That fatigue that Torque split refers to is also not accounted for. 

So is TC fulfillingtheir mabdate if enforcing Regs consistently? I don’t think so; therefore Safety is reduced.

Here is the email:

As you are aware, Transport Canada’s priorities are to promote and develop a safe, secure and efficient transportation system, and aviation safety is of the utmost importance to the Department.

Transport Canada is aware of your position, which you have raised on several occasions and we believe we have addressed all of your concerns.  As no new issues or any new areas of concern have been raised we will consider this issue closed.  

As a reminder, Transport Canada's official position regarding air time vs flight time is attached.  Sufficient information is provided for you to determine the responses to your survey questions.  

Again, thank you for writing.

Sincerely,

Robert Sincennes, P.Eng.
Director, Standards Branch
Directeur, Normes‎
Tel: 613-991-2738   cell: 613-859-2796   facsimile / télécopieur : 613-952-3298‎
Internet: robert.sincennes@tc.gc.ca

Here is the attached interpretation:

Definition and Interpretation of air time and flight time as applicable to skid equipped helicopters.

CAR 101.01 – Interpretation

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; 

 CAR 605.94 Journey Log Requirements

(1) The particulars set out in column I of an item in Schedule I to this Division shall be recorded in the journey log at the time set out in column II of the item and by the person responsible for making entries set out in column III of that item.

(4) Unless recorded in the operational flight plan or operational flight data sheet, the pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in a commercial air service and operating in international flight shall record in the journey log the following particulars in respect of each flight:

(a) the names of all of the crew members and their duty assignments;

(b) the places and times of departure and arrival;

(c) the flight time;

(d) the nature of the flight, such as private, aerial work, scheduled or non-scheduled; and

(e) any incidents or observations relating to the flight.

Schedule I - Journey Log

Item       Particulars to be entered                                              

 4.            Air time of each flight or series of flights and cumulative total air time and, where applicable, number of operating cycles or landings since date of manufacture      

 Analysis:

1.For commercial international operations, air operators must record both air time and flight time in the Aircraft Journey Log.

2.Skid-equipped helicopters do not ground taxi.  Manoeuvring at an aerodrome at low speed and low altitude is referred to by ATC as “air taxi” or “hover taxi” depending on the aircraft altitude.  In any event, all movement by a skid-equipped helicopter involves flight.

 3.Air time commences when the helicopter lifts from the surface and continues to the point of landing. Flight time occurs when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of takeoff and continues until it comes to rest at the end of the flight.  In a skid-equipped helicopter, takeoff and manoeuvring for takeoff are the same action.  Landing and coming to rest at the end of a flight are also the same action. Taxi-time on the ground is non-existent.

 Conclusion: As the CARS flight time definition does not apply in the context of skid-equipped helicopter operations, the TC interpretation is that flight time equals air time for purposes of Journey Log entry requirements.  

 Note/Exception: There are some helicopter operations where the pilot is forced to land on a surface that will not fully support the helicopter’s weight, or may exceed pitch or roll limits, such as deep snow, swamps or rough, uneven terrain.  Landings on these surfaces is generally done to permit crew members to disembark/embark  or to unload equipment being used for the task at hand, such as firefighting crews and equipment,  mountain operations, and external load hook up.  In these cases, the pilot maintains aircraft position on a marginal surface by use of engine power (rotor at flight rpm and positive flight control placement including collective and pedal inputs).  In summary, the helicopter is essentially still flying while in contact with the ground.  

The definition of flight time is “the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off takes off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight”.  Our interpretation is that holding a helicopter in a position where the pilot must rely on the aircraft controls and engine power to maintain position and control does not meet the definition of “comes to rest at the end of the flight”.  

The time spent in these operations - holding the aircraft in place by means of the controls qualifies and continues to count as flight time. Accordingly, the operator is fully justified in claiming this flight time in the Journey Log Book.  If we consider flight time equals air time, then this allowance also addresses the necessity to log component time for the technical records as air time.

With regard to the ICAO definition for Flight Time – Helicopters contained in Annex 6, Part III, reads as follows:

Flight Time - helicopters.  The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of a flight and the rotor blades are stopped.

Note 1. The State may provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices.  Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors; and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight.  In any case, the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight is included within the calculation of flight time.

Note 2. This definition is intended only for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.

 TC Comments:

•The ICAO definition only applies to international commercial operations helicopters – not private operations, whereas our CARS definitions for flight time and air time apply to all operations.

•The ICAO definition (Note 2) is intended only for flight and duty time calculations.  This is to provide a means of capturing crew flight time particularly for signatory countries that do not have any flight and duty time regulations. This is not the case for Canada. Our current regulations and standards fully address commercial flight and duty limitations. 

•Note 1 authorizes the State to provide guidance and interpretation for other considerations concerning normal practices.

 •TC has not incorporated the ICAO definition into our CARS because this would result in inconsistencies in logging flight time between aeroplanes and helicopters and we believe the current definition – in which skid-equipped helicopter operations were considered- fully addresses the industry requirements, provided that one interpretation is used by all concerned.

 

[Vert]

Forgive me as I’m reading this last post from Freewheel (I haven’t read the entire thread) and coming in to this late, but in the Aeronautical Information Manual it quotes flight time to be logged in the journey log according to the chart attached. I’m confused on how the chart says from 0-2 minutes you don’t log anything and it doesn’t count as “loggable” time, apparently you don’t even make an entry according to this if your flight is less than 2 min.

If I read your last post correctly, the A.I.M is wrong, as TC states that Flight Time is Rotor Start to Rotor Stop and Air Time is from when you lift off the Surface and ends when you land and Touch the surface again and come to a “rest”. Or some form of both definitions and whoever’s interpretation.

 So by either definition it is impossible to have this 0-2 minutes count as nothing. Although it is very rare to have a 0-2 min flight, it does happen. 

I apologize if this has already been addressed before in the thread, like I said, coming in to this late in conversation, just a question I have.

Thanks!

 

 

[Blackmac]

4 hours ago, Vert said:

Forgive me as I’m reading this last post from Freewheel (I haven’t read the entire thread) and coming in to this late, but in the Aeronautical Information Manual it quotes flight time to be logged in the journey log according to the chart attached. I’m confused on how the chart says from 0-2 minutes you don’t log anything and it doesn’t count as “loggable” time, apparently you don’t even make an entry according to this if your flight is less than 2 min.

If I read your last post correctly, the A.I.M is wrong, as TC states that Flight Time is Rotor Start to Rotor Stop and Air Time is from when you lift off the Surface and ends when you land and Touch the surface again and come to a “rest”. Or some form of both definitions and whoever’s interpretation.

 So by either definition it is impossible to have this 0-2 minutes count as nothing. Although it is very rare to have a 0-2 min flight, it does happen. 

I apologize if this has already been addressed before in the thread, like I said, coming in to this late in conversation, just a question I have.

Thanks!

 

 

As has been discussed numerous times the confusion with Flight/AirTime goes back to when Jesus was an Alter Boy. 

Flight has been established as being "Air Time" for all practical purposes and is required to be entered in the AirCraft's Journey Log Book and Technical Log Book.

There is NO requirement in CANADA to log anything other than "AIR TIME".

Taxing for for take-off with a Fixed Wing "or winter warm up" has no bearing on either Helicopter or Fixed Wing.

Do you think Air Canada charges thirty minutes additional "AirTime" to it's aircraft while sitting idle at O'Hare waiting for take-off clearance.

AirTime is the only cost attributed to any aircraft "WHEN IT IS UNDER FULL POWER" AT TAKE-OFF AND STOPS UPON LANDING. 

For you added information Transport Canada Standards Branch needs a complete overhaul on its technical Regulations and should also have a look at CARS and get things up to date and get rid of all the HOGWASH and talk in a non lawyer fashion. Most aircrew are not lawyers (except for HAC) and speak ordinary lingo.

It's also great to see a  Robert Sincennes, P.Eng. Director, Standards Branch

What the **** is a P.Eng doing running a standards branch for aircraft, without an aircraft background.

For the information of Transport Canada Standards Branch, when an operator is operating over a hundred aircraft consisting of rotory and fixed  wing aircraft, the difference in times entered in the LOG BOOKS can be very costly.

SO, TRANSPORT CANADA, PLEASE REMOVE ANY REFERENCE TO " FLIGHT TIME" FROM THE JOURNEY LOG AS IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT "AIR TIME" IS THE ONLY ENTRY REQUIRED FOR THE OPERATOR AND THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE TO KEEP THEIR COSTS INLINE.

 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Freewheel said:

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Blackmac
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