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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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54 minutes ago, Brian Jenner said:

Invoicing has nothing to do with « flight time » « air time »; it must conform to tarrif which must comply with the National Transportation Act not the Aeronautics Act. 

I don't know where you were in 1987 when de-regulation came into effect???

For all practical purposes TARIFF for the helicopter industry does not exist.

You can change your TARIFF for every job you bid on, and file it in your drawer, if you had a desk.  

If you wanted a helicopter on a short term contract, you called operators over the phone and asked them to submit a fax bid and then brow beat them again to get the lowest bid.  It's referred to as  "SHOTGUN BIDDING". Sound familiar. That is why the industry needs a SHAKE UP.

AIRTIME is what it COSTS the operator to operate the machine and is invoiced as an hourly rate and entered in the Tech/Eng logs.

If you take the hourly rate entered in the invoice it should equal the  hours entered in the Tech Logs.

Flight Time is not applicable and should be removed from all log books.  

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3 hours ago, Blackmac said:

 

AIRTIME is what it COSTS the operator to operate the machine and is invoiced as an hourly rate and entered in the Tech/Eng logs.

If you take the hourly rate entered in the invoice it should equal the  hours entered in the Tech Logs.

Flight Time is not applicable and should be removed from all log books.  

And wrong again....you're sure wrong a lot for a guy who's been in this industry a long time.

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1 hour ago, simpleton said:

And wrong again....you're sure wrong a lot for a guy who's been in this industry a long time.

The whole problem with you is that I guess I'm typing over your head as you don't seem to reply with anything worth discussing.

Try explaining yourself, using more than one sentence.  As most of your replies amount to nothing or are you just out of kindergarten.

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Well, lets see then....you know, since you think that the "invoice should never be more than the airtime in the logbook".

Ever been on a cathodic protection job? You know, where you're landing every few miles and waiting running 5-8 min while they take their readings. You seriously think companies are only charging airtime when the machine is running most of the day? You seriously think the invoice is going to match the airtime in the logbook? Or how about pilot operating....you seriously think you're going to do 12-20 starts a day and not recoup some cost on that above and beyond the airtime? You're delusional if you think any company should or will eat all of that cost.

Then there's this genius quote "AIRTIME is what it COSTS the operator to operate the machine". Anybody with the capacity to think could tear that statement apart in seconds. You think aircraft starts are cheap and have no cost? Been logging all those ground run starts in the logbook on anything running an Allison 250....cause a lot of companies aren't (and supposed to be). There's a cost to those I can guarantee you. An S92 doesn't cost anything to run-up and wait for IFR and departure clearance before it gets airborne? Never had pilots paid out a daily minimum that the aircraft didn't get?

Christ, I can't take anything you write seriously.

 

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I’m a bit bored today so I just read through the Canadian Air Transportation Regulations on the justice laws website. There’s a lot of information regarding tariffs, advertising etc for aircraft over 15900kgs or 20 seats but not much specific info on GA charter. I did not see anywhere any reference to the invoiced time required to be the same as the tech log time, pilots log book time or any other time. Even under part 5 “tariffs” it doesn’t refer to it. In part 5.1 advertising section 135.7 I did find this - 

Application

  • 135.7 (1) Subject to subsection (2), this Part applies to advertising in all media of prices for air services within, or originating in, Canada.

  • (2) This Part does not apply to an advertisement that relates to

    • (a) an air cargo service;

    • (b) a package travel service that includes an air service and any accommodation, surface transportation or entertainment activity that is not incidental to the air service; or

    • (c) a price that is not offered to the general public and is fixed through negotiation.

  • (3) This Part does not apply to a person who provides another person with a medium to advertise the price of an air service.

so reading item (c) these regs don’t apply.

I’ve been told by a very experienced operator that TC never ask to see the invoices, probably as they don’t have a legal right to but I haven’t researched that to be sure. Operators/customers usually have an agreed hourly rate for the machine, but if I fly 5 hours in a day & invoice the customer 6 hours it’s up to the customer to pay or refuse. No-one else cares. If I had a shocker of a day on a production job I would probably knock a bit off the invoice as a show of good will to the customer but the tech log would match the aircraft usage, I’ve had 4 hour minimums before where I’ve only flown 3.5 hours, the invoice said 4 hours, the tech log said 3.5 hours. The tech log matched the aircraft life, the customer was happy, I was happy, No-one else cares.

The Air transportation regs do have a lot to say about advertised prices between points or on specific routes, for example “$300 for a 1/2 hour flight over the mountains”. Operators have specific rules to follow there with regard to the charges to the customer, but again no reference to what you write in your log book or the tech logs.

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15 hours ago, simpleton said:

Well, lets see then....you know, since you think that the "invoice should never be more than the airtime in the logbook".

Ever been on a cathodic protection job? You know, where you're landing every few miles and waiting running 5-8 min while they take their readings. You seriously think companies are only charging airtime when the machine is running most of the day? You seriously think the invoice is going to match the airtime in the logbook? Or how about pilot operating....you seriously think you're going to do 12-20 starts a day and not recoup some cost on that above and beyond the airtime? You're delusional if you think any company should or will eat all of that cost.

Then there's this genius quote "AIRTIME is what it COSTS the operator to operate the machine". Anybody with the capacity to think could tear that statement apart in seconds. You think aircraft starts are cheap and have no cost? Been logging all those ground run starts in the logbook on anything running an Allison 250....cause a lot of companies aren't (and supposed to be). There's a cost to those I can guarantee you. An S92 doesn't cost anything to run-up and wait for IFR and departure clearance before it gets airborne? Never had pilots paid out a daily minimum that the aircraft didn't get?

Christ, I can't take anything you write seriously.

 

I believe I made a comment about this years ago and as a contracting officer with PWGSC and responsible for trying to clarify how aviation charters should be billed to all department of the Federal Government, I had a clause inserted in all Contracts and Standing Offers issued to companies on how to bill:

Fixed Wing: rate per mile from A to B and return, including allowable charges as agreed. 

Rotary Wing: Hourly Rate from takeoff to final landing. i.e. depending on the requirement and type of work where the engine was not shut-down, it would be considered a continuous flight. The same would apply to fixed wing doing surveys.

Gravity Survey in the James Bay Hydro Electric Project: A normal day was approximately 120 landing and take-offs, on floats. Do you think the battery or engine could manage such stress with the cool down and start-ups 120 times. 

This would apply to both types of aircraft, charges should only apply when the aircraft is in flight mode, ceases when the aircraft lands. This IS referred  to as "AIR TIME".

The entry of "AIR TIME" is the TRUE COST to the operator and is reflected in the overall maintenance life of the aircraft. "Flight Time" should be  removed from the Journey Log Book as it serves no purpose other than to HAVE THE DISHONEST OPERATORS USE IT FOR BILLING.

DO YOU THINK THE OPERATORS ARE GOING TO MAKE A STINK ABOUT,  HA, HA

All the Auditors have to do is cross check the invoice for any given flight and the entry in the journey log and the tech log, you will be surprised.

As stated before, I am a trained "auditor" trained by transport Transport Canada" and the United States Air Force.

And as is well known in the industry, although Headquarters in Ottawa issues the regulations they are not applied in the same manner intended, each fiefdom across the country has it's own interpretation. Each Inspector has his own interpretation.   SUCH IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH AND DO YOU THINK THE INDUSTRY IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT, GET A LIFE.

 

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5 hours ago, simpleton said:

Man are you ever delusional.

Back to kindergarten a whole five words. It's a simple world mon ami and if you believe people (operators) don't screw around with entries in the tech logs you are sadly mistaken. 

If you keep your airtime lower you also keep your overhaul costs lower, including items that are time expired.

So if you think I am delusional, think again, because I'm not the one who has a problem with reality.

I would appreciate it you were not so condescending and kept you remarks to yourself.   

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1 hour ago, Blackmac said:

So if you think I am delusional, think again, because I'm not the one who has a problem with reality.

 

I just thought again......yep, you're still delusional and have a problem with reality.

"I would appreciate it you were not so condescending and kept you remarks to yourself."

I'm sure you would....and I won't

 

 

 

 

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I am not sure of the regs in Canada and not getting into that, but only in aviation, when you hire an excavator or a crane you pay on engine hours not just when the tracks or the boom operating , why with aircraft only on airtime, because companies look at it as a big expense. They will pay huge money for consultants that achieve nothing and **** things up. Engine still running and components are still getting a wear factor. With the way satellite tracking is gong the fire departments and companies will auto invoice of sat tracking.  The Sat tracking will record the movement attached to their invoice system, another way for them to save dollars at the expense of operators. Only drives the industry into a bear minimum survival mode. If you are not getting 1000 hours per year per aircraft in years to come the industry will hit rock bottom. Oh I forgot that for every operator that falls over or gets out, another on comes along and thinks that all before were doing it wrong.  

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