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OGEgirl

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

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Thanks for all your effort Chad. It will be interesting to see what comes back from TC. As others have pointed out the "industry norm" seems to be, log air time plus a .1 for the start/stop cycle. Previously this would often underlog, now this would overlog.

 

Seems like there is a problem with fixed wing terminology as applied to helicopters. No one can argue you are Pilot In Command from rotor start to stop. Technically we should all log two things: PIC and Air Time (skids up). I will still log Air Time anytime I have the collective up since I'm flying even if the skids are touching. Unless you toe in or land on slopes bad snow etc all the time this will not make that much difference in the long run.

 

I've been flying mostly in the US the past few years. There is no argument helicopter flight time is skids up as far as the FAA is concerned.

 

In the end it is an honour system about what you write in your log. I went to TC once to get my FAA private fixed wing converted to a TC. After much reading and discussion of the conversion regs it was determined I was short 3 hours of dual. I was verbally told I probably forgot to log some time and why don't I go back to my car and come back with those hours logged. I was not impressed and decided not to forge an instructors signature for the sake of expediency.

 

Come on TC get it together it's not that complicated. In the end as long as everyone does the same thing it's a level playing field.

 

I'm sure you will keep us posted Chad.

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  • Determination of Firm Rate Per Hour
    • Except as provided in subsection 7 (B), the hours and minutes for which a charge is made shall be computed from the time the aircraft leaves the surface of the earth and terminating when the aircraft touches the surface of the earth at the next point of landing. The term "Firm Rate Per Hour" is an hourly charge or portion thereof of "Air Time" as defined in the Canadian Aviation Regulations, Part VIII, Air Navigation Services, and will be the basis of calculating charges for air services.
    • When operations involve a continuous succession of flights, each of less than ten (10) minutes duration, and the engine is not shut down between such flights, air time shall be computed from the time the aircraft leaves the surface of the earth for the first flight and ceases when the aircraft touches the surface of the earth at the final point of landing.
    • In determining the duration of a flight:
      • each fraction of an hour shall be stated as a decimal, established on the basis of a six minute period,
      • each period of less than three minutes shall be rounded to zero, and
      • each period of between three and six minutes shall be rounded to six minutes,

      except that no flight shall be considered to have a duration of less than 0.1 hour.

    [*]Application of Rates and Charges Fixed Wing Only

    • On charters, rates per mile shall apply for all point-to-point flights where flight distances are measurable.
    • Rates per hour shall apply when the Carrier is providing air service for a Charterer engaged in operations involving flights or parts thereof where flight distances are not measurable, or when requested by Charterer and such request is noted by the Carrier on the invoice.

    [*]Methods of Measuring Distance Fixed Wing Only

    1. When a flight is required to be flown over airways routes or routes prescribed by the Department of Transport, the distances shall be measured in straight lines along such routes.
    2. The distances of flights, other than a flight referred to in subsection 9 (a), shall be measured in a straight line between the places of commencement and termination of the work provided for in the charter, using standard 8 miles to 1 inch aeronautical charts of the National Topographic Series, as issued by the Department of Natural Resources, Ottawa.

The above was copied from the NMSO issued by PWGSC and is used by all operators.

"Air Time" is the only time that can be charged the CHARTERER and covers all aircraft costs to the OPERATOR.

"Air Time" time shall be computed from the time the aircraft leaves the surface of the earth for the first flight and ceases when the aircraft touches the surface of the earth at the final point of landing.

EXAMPLE:

Chicago O'Hare airport: B747 taxi's from terminal to wait in line for take-off. 30 minutes later away he goes. As his time is calculated in miles from point to point, the pilot converts the miles to minutes and enters them in the log book under "AIR TIME" which goes against the TAFT and Engines. If he so wishes he can enter "FLIGHT TIME"

which is calculated from the time he STARTED the a/c and took control to when he returned the a/c to the terminal and "SHUTS DOWN"

Same Airport: BELL 407 sits at the heliport waiting take-off clearance. 10 minutes later away he goes and lands at the downtown Heli-Port and shuts down. The same scenario applies applies as to the B747.

The actual Air Time is charged to the aircraft and charterer.

The Flight Time as to when the pilot had control of the a/c on the ground can be entered as flight time.

The reasoning behind all this is rather obvious, the operating cost of most aircraft in the commercial market is already costing enough to the charterer without the operator adding idling costs.

For some unknown reason, the operators and the CHARTERERS accepts the use flight time for billing purposes.

As an ex contracting officer and auditor it is very easy cross check invoices with log book entries.

Try starting of the new year by being HONEST.

Cheers Don

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"The above was copied from the NMSO issued by PWGSC and is used by all operators.

"Air Time" is the only time that can be charged the CHARTERER and covers all aircraft costs to the OPERATOR.

 

"Air Time" time shall be computed from the time the aircraft leaves the surface of the earth for the first flight and ceases when the aircraft touches the surface of the earth at the final point of landing."

 

This method of billing is also accepted by BCFS

 

The description of "Air time" above in the NMSO is including running time between landings which properly defined should be "OPS time", although may be "flight time" if TC ever gets it right. The "air time" defined above should not go in the journey log. Accumulated time in the air would be, and is the only time that should go under the airtime column in the journey. As for Flight Time Duty Day record, I am using "OPS Time", which is also entered into the personal log.

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The way I have been doing it, and the way I was taught in europe, and still doing for that matter is:

 

Flight Time: (for the purpose of logging PIC time etc) From the FIRST lift off, till the LAST set down, which is what it seems that Transport in some regions want us to log. It includes time spent on the ground running AFTER (as some people call ops time), same way that OMNR wants it billed/logged.

 

Air Time: (for the purpose of logging aircraft maintenance time) Time the A/C is in the air only.

 

It is incredible that TC can't get their head wrapped around this, the Europeans seem to, and the FAA as well.

 

The FAA also has "policy groups" that comes out with published papers, with "interpretations" of the FAR's, these are mandatory to follow. Perhaps an idea for TC as well. Perhaps they would then agree to what is what when it comes to things that differ between regions. Having dealt with flight training for a while, in 3 different regions, and unfortunately most of the interpretaions have been different between the 3...

 

Anyways, those are my thoughts on Flight/Air time.

 

Cheers

H.

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Air Time: (for the purpose of logging aircraft maintenance time) Time the A/C is in the air only.

 

 

Surely, with the importance placed on cycle count in this era, helicopter 'air time' should include ground running time as any number of cycles can occur, depending on the pilot's actions without lifting off.

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Guest plumber

Its funny that when I flew airplanes the hairiest and scariest part of flying was before the aircraft left the ground and just after it touched the ground. I guess as far as that goes I'll start letting my customers start the machine cause I'm no longer responsible for the aircraft until its airborne.

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Surely, with the importance placed on cycle count in this era, helicopter 'air time' should include ground running time as any number of cycles can occur, depending on the pilot's actions without lifting off.

Entries go in the journey log every time the aircraft is started. Starts and all cycles are logged. If the aircraft never leaves the ground, the logbook entry in the air time column is 0.0.

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How about a simple solution? Everybody counts both in all logbooks. Journey Logs have two columns, one for "Flight Time" and one for "Air Time". Pilot logbooks will have the same two columns. Prospective employers, clients, and insurance companies can then decide which column they want to use in determining a pilot's experience/qualifications. Clients and contractors can decide which number to use for billing.

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I agree LB. We should log PIC from rotor start to stop, and air time skids up. That is the clean and simple way that reflects what helicopters do. Flight time limits would likely be based on air time though let TC and HAC hammer that out.

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