Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook

[Grasshopper]

Entries go in the journey log every time the aircraft is started. Starts and all cycles are logged. If the aircraft never leaves the ground, the logbook entry in the air time column is 0.0.

 

If you really believe that, I've got some property I'd like to show you in the Everglades.

[bs205]

Freewheel has it right, and TC knows it. And I have seen his property, and there is no swamp!!

[Caldy]

Its funny that when I flew airplanes the hairiest and scariest part of flying was before the aircraft left the ground and just after it touched the ground. I guess as far as that goes I'll start letting my customers start the machine cause I'm no longer responsible for the aircraft until its airborne.

 

 

Your responsibilities as PIC starts long before the blades ever start moving and stop long after they come to rest. Winnie had said that he can't understand why TC can't get there head wrapped around this. I respectfully disagree. I think they do have there head wrapped around it. Its the rest of us that don't. The definitions do need some clarification but no matter how you write it, they will never cover all situations and they have probably been left a little vague in true TC fashion on purpose.

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft (the whole aircraft. It doesn't say blades) first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it(the aircraft. Not blades) comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

Thus air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped aircraft. It does not matter how the ICAO or the FAA or how any anybody else does it. This is how it is written in CARS and this is how it should be logged. My only beef is when the skids are on the ground but you are still holding power IE during a tow in. IMHO I believe this should also be considered air time. And this is how I would log it. If you are dropping off passengers on the skag on the rocks or werever, you should be holding power. (think 206 when the front passenger hops out) If your holding power you are still flying and the meters still ticking and the air time is still accumulating. If you are at idle you are not flying and the meter is not ticking. You might as well get out and have a smoke and stretch your legs. The aircraft will happily idle away with out any help from you. Not saying I recommend that though.....that would be for another thread.

 

From PIC logging point of view, Air time is a more realistic measurement of your experience. Flight time is a measurement of your seat meat time and only slightly more valuable than co-jo time. I for one am tired of hopping in a machine with a so called 750 hour "flight time" pilot who's flying ability is well below standard for his hours.I know guys do it so that they can meet the customers standards but maybe if guys quit bs'ing there hours the standards wouldn't be as high. That though is also for another thread. Air time is also verifiable. All one needs to do is compare the journey log to your log book. At my company, we do not log Flight time in our journey logs and if a pilot's logbook were different than the journey log book then the pilot would have some explaining to do. Were would you even start with that. uh I did only fly an hour that day but we landed and waited for at least 15 minutes engines running at three sites so that's an extra .8 and we shut down at the next three so that's another .3 so you add those up that's 2.1 hours flight time that I put in my log book.

 

As for flight duty times....If air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped helicopters than there really isn't any issues.

 

That's my two cents

 

On a side note Freewheel........I went looking through the COM the other day to find the term air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped aircraft. I could not find it. I know that it used to be there but somewhere along the numerous revisions it has been lost. So there is hope. You might be able to get it removed.

[Winnie]

Caldy:

Well thought out response!

 

I choose to disagree, and for once I'll back up my argument with facts:

 

First off:

Personal Logs from cars 401.08(2)(g)

Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

 

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

 

( recency.

 

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and ( shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

 

 

(g) the flight time;

 

then the two definitions:(edit: Copy and paste straight out of CAR's 101!

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

(bolds mine)

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

This states what I think TC has been trying to say, that Air Time and Flight Time are NOT the same, HOWEVER, in the case of helicopters, the FLIGHT time starts when you lift off the first time, and end when you set down the last time as opposed to when you start and when you shut down.

 

Air time is SOLELY the time spent in the air, for the purposes of tracking maintenance time. So logging Air Time in your personal log book is ALSO not correct.

The difference will be that flight time continues to accrue while sitting on the ground after having made the first lift off, HOWEVER the startup and shut down are NOT counted.

 

This is where that last 0.1 would have been made...

 

So my argument will still be, Air Time and Flight Time are NOT the same, and should not be the same, you just don't get to log that .1 for start up and shut down...

Clear as mud? I think so, hopefully some bright minds at transport actually reads the definition again, and see that it is stated somewhat clearly in their own regs...

 

Cheers

Harald

[Freewheel]

Your responsibilities as PIC starts long before the blades ever start moving and stop long after they come to rest. Winnie had said that he can't understand why TC can't get there head wrapped around this. I respectfully disagree. I think they do have there head wrapped around it. Its the rest of us that don't. The definitions do need some clarification but no matter how you write it, they will never cover all situations and they have probably been left a little vague in true TC fashion on purpose.

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft (the whole aircraft. It doesn't say blades) first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it(the aircraft. Not blades) comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

Thus air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped aircraft. It does not matter how the ICAO or the FAA or how any anybody else does it. This is how it is written in CARS and this is how it should be logged. My only beef is when the skids are on the ground but you are still holding power IE during a tow in. IMHO I believe this should also be considered air time. And this is how I would log it. If you are dropping off passengers on the skag on the rocks or werever, you should be holding power. (think 206 when the front passenger hops out) If your holding power you are still flying and the meters still ticking and the air time is still accumulating. If you are at idle you are not flying and the meter is not ticking. You might as well get out and have a smoke and stretch your legs. The aircraft will happily idle away with out any help from you. Not saying I recommend that though.....that would be for another thread.

 

From PIC logging point of view, Air time is a more realistic measurement of your experience. Flight time is a measurement of your seat meat time and only slightly more valuable than co-jo time. I for one am tired of hopping in a machine with a so called 750 hour "flight time" pilot who's flying ability is well below standard for his hours.I know guys do it so that they can meet the customers standards but maybe if guys quit bs'ing there hours the standards wouldn't be as high. That though is also for another thread. Air time is also verifiable. All one needs to do is compare the journey log to your log book. At my company, we do not log Flight time in our journey logs and if a pilot's logbook were different than the journey log book then the pilot would have some explaining to do. Were would you even start with that. uh I did only fly an hour that day but we landed and waited for at least 15 minutes engines running at three sites so that's an extra .8 and we shut down at the next three so that's another .3 so you add those up that's 2.1 hours flight time that I put in my log book.

 

As for flight duty times....If air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped helicopters than there really isn't any issues.

 

That's my two cents

 

On a side note Freewheel........I went looking through the COM the other day to find the term air time and flight time are the same for skid equipped aircraft. I could not find it. I know that it used to be there but somewhere along the numerous revisions it has been lost. So there is hope. You might be able to get it removed.

Just so you know, I didn't post on this forum to prove that I am right. Just to prove that there is confusion. This forum is a perfect example of the confusion industry wide.

Transport clearly doesn't have "there head wrapped around" this issue, otherwise the Director of Standards would not have responded that "in reality Flight Time is not the same as Air Time...." while inspectors are laying findings to contradict this fact. If they clearly have there head wrapped around it, why not just respond?

 

All we want is clarification...so we all follow the same standards. Obviously that is not the case as seen by the comments in this forum.

 

Is Flight Time the same as Air Time or not? It either is or it isn't. Currently we are to believe it is with respect to flight training of commercial pilots, but not for students getting a licence, calculating flight time limits and/or personnal log (as stated by the director in her e-mail and off the record by some inspectors).

 

I don't see anything stated in the CARs (or in any supporting documentation) that states the definition should be interpreted diffferently in these situations. Shouldn't the definition of the Flight Time in the CARs be interpreted the same way in all of these aspects?

 

With all due respect, to expect operators and pilots to interpret the definition both ways depending on what we are discussing doesn't make sense to me. This just adds to the confusion and quite frankly doesn't pass the sniff test...

[Freewheel]

Caldy:

Well thought out response!

 

I choose to disagree, and for once I'll back up my argument with facts:

 

First off:

Personal Logs from cars 401.08(2)(g)

Personal Logs

 

 

then the two definitions:(edit: Copy and paste straight out of CAR's 101!

(bolds mine)

 

 

This states what I think TC has been trying to say, that Air Time and Flight Time are NOT the same, HOWEVER, in the case of helicopters, the FLIGHT time starts when you lift off the first time, and end when you set down the last time as opposed to when you start and when you shut down.

 

Air time is SOLELY the time spent in the air, for the purposes of tracking maintenance time. So logging Air Time in your personal log book is ALSO not correct.

The difference will be that flight time continues to accrue while sitting on the ground after having made the first lift off, HOWEVER the startup and shut down are NOT counted.

 

This is where that last 0.1 would have been made...

 

So my argument will still be, Air Time and Flight Time are NOT the same, and should not be the same, you just don't get to log that .1 for start up and shut down...

Clear as mud? I think so, hopefully some bright minds at transport actually reads the definition again, and see that it is stated somewhat clearly in their own regs...

 

Cheers

Harald

 

Well said....

[Freewheel]

I'd hate to be accused of misquoting the Director of Standards:

"otherwise the Director of Standards would not have responded that "in reality Flight Time is not the same as Air Time...." while inspectors are laying findings to contradict this fact.

 

What the director actually said in her Sep 20 e-mail was:

 

"The reality is that helicopter flights do not end when the helicopter touches a surface, but rather “…the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight….” as per the meaning within Subsection 101.01 (1) of the CARs. Within your scenario, “flight time” might continue while the helicopter is in contact with the surface but still under control by the pilot in command. If the intent is to not terminate the flight at this time and where there is no intent to shut down the helicopter, then the flight time should continue to be logged."

[Winnie]

Which then again implies that the Director actually understands that Air Time and Flight Time are two differnet things, and should be entered as such.

 

Thus there are a bunch of inspector AND pilots that need to re-read the CARS a little.

 

Cheers

Harald

[__________]

There definitely needs to be some clarification if not one person being pilots, operators, or TC can agree on the subject.

 

My opinion is that most flight schools are billing and logging "FLIGHT TIME" engine start to stop, and that is what is being put in the students logbooks as experience, and that is what the commercial licence is based on. You don't see students being charged for 110hrs+ for 100hrs in there logbooks. TC seems to have no problem with this. And if we are all suppose to log Air Time as flight experience then there would be a lot of 100hr wonders with licences that really don't meet the flight experience requirements for a 100hr commercial licence.

 

Also TC has already sent out a clarification of there definition of "flight time" which is inline with the ICAO definition of flight time clearly stating to be inline with the ICAO definition that helicopters skid equipped, "flight time" is rotors turning to rotors stopped. That letter was recently cancelled with no differences stated under annex 1 of the ICAO definitions. SO Canada must still have the same definition as the ICAO version. As well as CARS has not been amended. I still do not understand why the letter was cancelled and they have already basically stated in the letter that there is currently a need for clarity in the industry. So I guess it must be better for TC to leave thing un-clarified.

 

So now it is left up to the operators and pilots to figure out the real meaning of flight time. Which some operators tell there pilots they can only log Air Time in there personal logbooks and I am guessing that this is so it lines up with there pilots flight and duty times which they may get more use out of a pilot that logs airtime versus flight time.

 

General Aviation Policy Letter (GAPL) No. 2005-02

 

Reference

Canadian Aviation Regulations Part I - General Provisions, Sub-part 1 Interpretation

 

Background

CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".

 

For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.

 

Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped." In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter "flight time" for helicopters on skids.

 

Action

In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."

 

In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter "flight time" will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.

 

Effective Date

September 1, 2005

 

Expiry Date

This Policy Letter will expire with the appropriate amendment to the CARs.

 

Manzur Huq

Director

General Aviation

[Winnie]

Also TC has already sent out a clarification of there definition of "flight time" which is inline with the ICAO definition of flight time clearly stating to be inline with the ICAO definition that helicopters skid equipped, "flight time" is rotors turning to rotors stopped. That letter was recently cancelled with no differences stated under annex 1 of the ICAO definitions. SO Canada must still have the same definition as the ICAO version. As well as CARS has not been amended. I still do not understand why the letter was cancelled and they have already basically stated in the letter that there is currently a need for clarity in the industry.

 

This is the letter that Transport Canada has cancelled, thus this discussion now again.

 

So what I personally see, is that Transport Canada reverted back to skids up first time to skids down last time as FLIGHT TIME, and Any time in the AIR as AIR TIME.

 

I guess the whole issue/confusion is that some inspectors, and pilots alike fail to see the distinction.

As was mentioned earlier, on for instance a toe in, this counts as air time/flight time, whilst SITTING on the ground at IDLE (landing number X after start, but NOT final shutdown) counts as FLIGHT TIME, but NOT air time.

And the CARs actually are fairly specific with regards to this.

 

I guess Transport Canada got tired of flight schools using .2/.3/.4 on the ground, and that students where not getting their 'monies worth' and thus needed to reflect this, with regards to starts and shut-downs, however, there STILL needs to be some clarification amongst some, what the difference between air and flight time is.

 

So to sumarize again

Air time and flight time are NOT the same. Just can't log that 15 minute start up and 3 minute shut-down as flight time.

Cheers

Harald