I Was Wondering Why This Is So

[jullian]

P5

Good one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

good

[dimit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a lot of 100hr pilots going off into cr@ppy, remote camps these days. I don't see any low timers in line for my B2, either. For those folks with a few more hours there's lots of employment ads... If the conditions are terrible and the company won't help, can't you "check out" at the end of your shift and find a more responsive and responsible employer?

 

If I don't have reasonable living conditions my bosses will back my efforts to make things right. The last thing they want is an accident 'cuz the pilot couldn't eat/sleep/cr@p in reasonable comfort. Is it perfect? No, but safety isn't compromised.

 

None of this addresses the arguments for and against an association. I joined HEPAC because it looked like good things could come of it. Clearly there wasn't the critical mass to make it go.

 

I've only worked for a few companies, but they've seemed to be interested in keeping pilots and engineers relatively happy. Sure I've seen folks "handled roughly", and taken a few "knocks" myself, but it's been no worse than the politics and HR (mis)management I've seen at good employers in other industries. Is it right? No. Is it worth forming an association for? Apparently not... I also know that there are a very few employers who are unscrupulous and best avoided. An association is unlikely to cure those ills.

 

Great discussion!

 

Sincerely,

 

Dick M.

[pilot5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a lot of 100hr pilots going off into cr@ppy, remote camps these days. I don't see any low timers in line for my B2, either. For those folks with a few more hours there's lots of employment ads... If the conditions are terrible and the company won't help, can't you "check out" at the end of your shift and find a more responsive and responsible employer?

 

If I don't have reasonable living conditions my bosses will back my efforts to make things right. The last thing they want is an accident 'cuz the pilot couldn't eat/sleep/cr@p in reasonable comfort. Is it perfect? No, but safety isn't compromised.

 

None of this addresses the arguments for and against an association. I joined HEPAC because it looked like good things could come of it. Clearly there wasn't the critical mass to make it go.

 

I've only worked for a few companies, but they've seemed to be interested in keeping pilots and engineers relatively happy. Sure I've seen folks "handled roughly", and taken a few "knocks" myself, but it's been no worse than the politics and HR (mis)management I've seen at good employers in other industries. Is it right? No. Is it worth forming an association for? Apparently not... I also know that there are a very few employers who are unscrupulous and best avoided. An association is unlikely to cure those ills.

 

Great discussion!

 

Sincerely,

 

Dick M.

 

 

Good post Dick

 

Personally I dont think there is anything to be lost by having an association. The question of the critical mass has everything to do with getting out there and speaking with the crews and signing people up. I know this becuase of the 100 or so that eventually signed up I was responsible for encouraging a proportion of them by actually speaking to guys in the field... at camp or after that early morning meeting with forestry.. I can assure you that on a 1 to 1 basis when a guy is alone and away form his peers or colleages .. the opinions expressed are a whole lot different and there was was an overwhelming support for the cause... That being said did the upper mgmt at HEPAC share this approach, sure they did.. But the President took on a new job with CHC, and various others plain old just didn't have time to push the matter. Thats my interpretation.. I dont think the matter of critical mass was at all the problem but more the time and a grass roots approach to making it happen plus a consistant effort to keep going no matter how long it took....

 

When the critcal mass was reached then would have been the time to go to government... Any moves by HEPAC were premature and therefore fuitless.. This was my advice then as it is now.

 

Unfortunatly the mission was abandoned... Maybe it will resurface under new management in the future...

 

P5

[Grasshopper]

P5, aside from the 'critical mass' question, how much consideration have you given to the usual sad reality that, when you get those folks off 'one-on-one,' they'll as often as not be telling you what they think you want to hear. I believe Dick's post has a lot of merit and the more rabid anti-operator types could almost certainly benefit from considering his thinking.

[drkrider]

The TC regulations concerning crew accomodations are clear.But dont worry I am sure HAC will be after the clients of its members to comply with the regulations with exacting speed and due diligence.

 

You could of course file a complaint agianst your employer for not complying with the regulations or better yet file the compliant with the SMS manager- who is funded and reports directly to the acconutable executive- Your boss! I am certian he will pull all helicopters off the job until the client- who is paying him complies with the regulations.

 

p5

 

Actually we turned down several jobs because of what the living conditions going to be in camp this past summer

 

Look in the CLC part II believe lays out the minimum standards which is actually pretty good. Do your home work you do have the right to refuse as an employee. Any company that wouldn't back you up for OH&S violations isn't worth working for.

 

Sean

[Icewind]

Actually we turned down several jobs because of what the living conditions going to be in camp this past summer

 

Look in the CLC part II believe lays out the minimum standards which is actually pretty good. Do your home work you do have the right to refuse as an employee. Any company that wouldn't back you up for OH&S violations isn't worth working for.

 

Sean

 

The only definition in CARS of "suitable accommodation" I have seen is = "suitable accommodation" - means a single-occupancy bedroom that is subject to a minimal level of noise, is well ventilated and has facilities to control the levels of temperature and light or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements;

 

The underlining is mine and it seems to me that leaves a lot of wriggle room - if the site & season is a wilderness lake in the summer then the traditional tent with a wood floor, screen windows and an air-tight stove could easily be deemed adequate. It doesn't mention a beer fridge, electricity and wifi!

 

I took a look at the Canadian Labour Code Part 2, and I am not sure which part you are referring to that speaks to accommodation standards?

[drkrider]

The only definition in CARS of "suitable accommodation" I have seen is = "suitable accommodation" - means a single-occupancy bedroom that is subject to a minimal level of noise, is well ventilated and has facilities to control the levels of temperature and light or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements;

 

The underlining is mine and it seems to me that leaves a lot of wriggle room - if the site & season is a wilderness lake in the summer then the traditional tent with a wood floor, screen windows and an air-tight stove could easily be deemed adequate. It doesn't mention a beer fridge, electricity and wifi!

 

I took a look at the Canadian Labour Code Part 2, and I am not sure which part you are referring to that speaks to accommodation standards?

 

Sorry I double checked it's actually in the Canadian OHS regulation Part IX http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-86-304/page-35.html#h-96

 

Brain wasn't working last night... If you actually read it most if not all hangers and offices need renovations..... Never mind the drill and tree planting camps

 

Sean

 

 

[pilot5]

P5, aside from the 'critical mass' question, how much consideration have you given to the usual sad reality that, when you get those folks off 'one-on-one,' they'll as often as not be telling you what they think you want to hear. I believe Dick's post has a lot of merit and the more rabid anti-operator types could almost certainly benefit from considering his thinking.

 

 

I beg to differ, I think people are more inclined to go with the flow and agree to or bend to the wishes of the group or conform. My experience has been that 'one on one' in person and you can get a better understanding of what the person thinks or believes. This is what the asch conformity experiment demonstrates as well as other psycholgical/ social and group studies.

 

I think Dicks post has alot of Merit, howevere having only worked for a few companies vs say more that 10 that provides a greater test sample from which observations can be made and hypothesis fomulated it represents a more constrained view. Although his position is informed it does not take into account the broader spectrum required for critical analysis. When you combine the opinions of many including the aformentiond above with exclusion of the matters contained in the first paragraph of this post only then can a close to accurate overview of the current industry be painted, difficulties discovered solutions found and conclusions reached.

 

There is undoubtedly some truley great companies to work for, where mgmt is superb, and the work experience is great! There is however room for improvement industry wide and the mechanism to move positive development/change of matters that concern crews will never be and over riding priority of HAC . So if its not the first concern its a non starter.

 

On the otherside of the coin to suggest that there is nothing wrong and all is fine and couldn't be better amounts basically to willfull blindness or broderline disengenous thinking.

 

I have always believed that its going to be hard struggle for this industry to inspire change from within. But I remain not without hope, perhaps only out of stubbornness.

 

P5

[General]

"I don't quite see it. The system doesn't seem to be falling apart. When the need is great enough, the people will put their foot down. It's basic human behaviour, and happens in any social, economic, or political context. The will of the people can change the world. If nothing happens, then that means the collective will of the people just isn't quite there in order to effect change."

 

PROactive vs. REactive

 

I guess it's better to wait for everything to fall apart before anyone tries to make improvements?

[dimit]

Thanks P5 and General. I like the clarifying and focusing in your posts!

 

DM