Dyna Nav Or Kodiak

[skullcap]

I think the key to each system is to use it as it was designed to do, guide you to a location. A good IFR pilot will still scan ALL available information. Do not for one second believe that you can simply stare at the thing and expect not to run into something.

 

In my opinion it has made a more even playing field for pilots. Not something alot of experienced seismic drivers like as now a"new guy" can arrive on the prospect and get around as easy and direct as the pilot he's replacing. Still takes a few days to get the area knowledge of weather and such but it sure takes a lot of stress away(don't need any comments on finding my donkey in the dark here either thankyou). Customers come out winners all around too. Have used the information gathered to "prove" a pilot was not in error when everyone within telephone range and their friggin dog was blaming the guy for screwing up. :up:

 

Which is better? well am not a fan of scrolling through to find shotpoints and still find at the end of the day there may be a bag in the wrong spot so chose the kodiak. Although they now have telemetry as the kodiak did right off the bat is probably ok. I know that the people who built the original kodiak were receptive and installed equipment that made the job easier have my vote. The screen in the old Dyna-nav is nothing but a piece of crap and should have put them out of business but save some marketing genius who sold them to the seismic companies thus "forcing" them to be used it kept them going like the energizer bunny.

 

Sometimes a person has to stick with something due to history and loyalty even though the two maybe equal now. Imagine that is the main discussion held by many.

 

PS I voted for the kodiak just so as you know.

 

 

 

sc

[shaggy]

i knew someone would say that there was no excuse for not looking outside. what else are you supposed to do? the screen isn't outside. i have done seismic for almost 3000hrs and i have never hit anything. i just think that these things (especially the dyna-nav) increase the risk factors involved in longline operations. some single strand powerlines are extremely hard to see at the best of times and if you are required to divert your attention away from what you should be looking for then who knows what might happen.

[A.O.G]

Hey there boys there is still some of us out there stuck in the stone ages were they strap a monkey to a quad armed with 5 rolls of flaging and a dinner bell straped to there high vis's. Who for some reason can't look up while there pinning flaging to the trunk of a tree 10' off the hand cut (or no cut is more like it).

 

Myself I have not had the opertunity to test ride either of thoughs systems but they sound like the cats meow. Now here's my question to you boys ,It was mentioned ealier that it evens the playing feild out between new and old drivers

which in all aspects of things is good...but would it not be better for new comers to start out with jobs that do not provide the the simplicity that the dina-nav\kodiak have to offer?

 

Sure they might have a harder time learning things but since when has anything good come easy. Also, do you not think that you would come out of it with a better idea of how a program works and why your doing the things your doing? What happens when the system fails (if it ever does) and now you have no choice but to revert back to the old methods.

 

Some of the companys that I have swung bags for that use the dyna-nav (except in these instences) say that lots of the guys out there now can't find line without it (not everybody mind you). I guess you can't have the best of bolth worlds...I could just be talking out my *** here 'cause I've never used one but these are just some things I was wondering.

 

Anyway, have a good day men fly safe.

[skullcap]

AOG;

In thoery it makes sense to learn the hard way then everything is easier after that. Also, makes sense to teach to keep eyes up and out. But, if pilot has a hard time finding his *** with both hands as most do initally on seismic then nav systems take that stress away.

 

Pilot's not learning by way of the kodiak must ensure they become proficient at locating the line. Still is important, just because the box says 3 meters to drop doesn't mean to drop as could be off line on other side of snowridge=bad ju ju.

 

In the open praire where you can see the bag marks is way slower but in handcut in bush the nav systems shine. Just use rangefinding as you did prior to the box and you will be fine. What I don't appreciate is the coordinator getting on the radio and saying"didn't you get the message I sent, you are flying through a no-fly zone" My response is to use the radio prior to me blazing through, its not as if you can't see my trajectory is direct. The bullshit that goes on messaging is what I really disagree with, but some people just seem to go on and on and never stop, huh, no you shutup.

 

Some screens are mounted to allow pilot to see it while in vertical reference mode thus in forward flight you have to move to observe the screen. We had them on the floor of 500 and astar.

 

All in all is another tool that if used with common sense is cool.

[shaggy]

it might even the playing feild to some extent especially of you are using a carousel. the bagrunner will do a lot to separate an experienced seismic driver from someone who is new although a nav system will help get you to a pick/drop faster than any other way. SC is right about the general knowledge of a job thing. it definitely helps to be familiar with an area and other factors.

i actually prefer to pick bags because generally you can see them from a distance and you are not relying on a computer/gps/gyro that may have poor satellite coverage and thus giving you bad pointer readings, is behind the helicopter in it's distance measuring therefore making you over fly the drop, and distracting the pilots attention from what is going on outside the machine. all of these things may contribute to increasing a pilots bag times which in most cases is not appreciated by often unreasonable party managers which results in them complaining to your boss or worse, getting you run off the job (but i digress as this is another thread altogether).

anyway, to me seismic in the winter is often easier due to the lack of leaves and the bags stand out better against a white background, plus the machines perform better.

with the amount of stuff that we have to look at (load, guages, surroundings, etc) there will be no amount of convincing that will make me think that concentrating on a computer screen no matter how good it is is smart and i have used the dyna-nav with the screen on the floor and mounted higher as i had described it before. it is just plain easier to aim for something that is not imaginary.

too bad i wasn't bright enough because i would do my best to invent something better and i could make a billion dollars .

[Jet B]

Sure, if seismic lines were as big and wide as they were 10 years ago you could argue that the dyna nav isn't necessary... But, avoidance cut is the thing now and there is no way in **** you can get the same production in heavy canopy without some kind of gps nav aid.

 

Maybe it depends on the person, but I find I actually have more time to concentrate on what I'm swinging my line towards when I use a dyna nav. I only ever glance at the thing anyway and the reduced stress makes my day safer over all since my neck isn't soooo **** sore from looking for flagging in a forest.

 

We always start our guys out on flatland 2d seismic so they get a good understanding of using bag flagging and finding multiple crisscrossing lines before they get trained on the dyna nav and bag runners.

 

When it all comes down to it though, the reason we end up using dyna nav, kodiak's, and bag runners isn't because people really give a crap about us, it's because the seismic crew can better utilize their man power with those tools... :shock:

[shaggy]

your last statement is exactly right and it goes as far as being the reason they use helicopters in the first place. the machines replace dozens of line crew.

[A.O.G]

So how accurate is it really? Are the boys on the ground muling gear all over the place while give the one fingered salute to you as you fly by? I can see picking the the bags going alot faster then layout just 'cause of the fact that you can see the bags.

 

What would be the average bag time one might expect to see using the nav\bag runner combo in hand cut, lets see thoughs egos shine...be honest now. Everyone must be fairly close together pending bag runner proficiency.

 

How long would it take a person with a couple thousand hours to get onto one of these things? That is of average mental capacity...for a pilot that is

[shaggy]

both of these systems will tell you that you (the antenna, actually) is within 0.1m of the drop. if you can get the bag that close intentionally without taking too long, then kudos. generally the crews are pretty good and the experienced ones will understand that you might have to skid a bag a few meters or so in order ot get the rack down through the branches, away from the powerline, or off the farmers front porch depending on where you are. they only seem to get really wound up when the bag is out by a station and they have to backtrack with gear in order to correct a mistake that they think you have made. with these systems it is not that hard to keep the crews happy and if you have to skid a bag off the drop make sure you let the coord. know so he can let the crew know (courtesy as much as anything).

as far as bag times, that is a more difficult question to answer as many factor come into play, such as: is the job in the bush or the priaries?, is it flat or in rough terrain?, how heavy are they/how many can you fly at once? are you using a bagrunner or a carousel? how far is it from pickup to layout? are you taking the bags through staging? i could go on but i am sure you will get the idea. generally, the customer will want you to produce numbers at least in the high twenties or they will start to ask questions. the bagrunner will usually help you go faster as you don't have to wait for the guy on the ground to catch up with you, but if you are just learning what to do with it you will most likely end up being quite a bit slower. there are many tricks that you pick up after a while with one of those things that will help you lower your bag times quite significantly. you will even get to the point where it is faster picking than it is laying out (not for every bag of course as it depends on the situation) because when dropping bags you often have to deal with tangled lanyards. this is especially true if the bags are not going directly from the back to the front as you don't need to worry if the lanyards are going to get tangled because they are all coming off at once and there will be someone to sort them out for you.

as far as learning how to use the kodiak/dyna-nav, i guess it depends on the installation in the machine. in the astar the hats on the cyclic can be dedicated for the few commands you need and stuff like "deploy" can be done automatically when you drop a bag so it isn't really very difficult. the kodiak is also pretty simple this way, too. for a guy new to seismic, it will be harder to get a handle on the job itself, such as the layout of the equipment etc. and every job has its peculiarties depending on the equipment they are using and a number of other things.

[Jet B]

Well said, I think you pretty much covered everything Shag. :up: