Weight And Balance Log Entry For Door Removal?

[Tailspin]

Now I'm really curious. In my career I have never observed anyone get out the logbook to make an entry before slinging a chainsaw to a faller or a dozen boxes of trees to the planters. I have never seen a chief pilot or ops manager remind a pilot to make his log entry for the door removal while hooking up the bambi bucket. I have never, ever, had someone stress to me the requirement to make a weight and balance amendment for a pilot door removal/re-install in the field. I don't recall ever seeing one of these entries in a log. Not ever. Have I been surrounded by anti-authority types and rule-breakers for the past fifteen years? So to help me to understand this, can one exceed the weight and balance limitations of a Bell 206 or 407 if all they want to do is take the **** door off to go slinging? Of course assuming that the external load is well within limits and there are no passengers or cargo in the cabin and the pilot does not exceed the doors-off Vne. I understand that in a very basic kind of way I would be altering the machine's configuration. Like installing a cargo basket or duals.

 

I found this in the 206 FM:

 

FLIGHT WITH DOOR(S) OFF

All unsecured items must be removed from cabin.

Do not exceed Airspeed and Center of Gravity Limitations.

Protracted rearward and sideward flight prohibited.

External Cargo Loading limited to 3350 pounds (1519.6 kilograms) gross weight

with any combination of door(s) OFF.

Flight with forward door(s) OFF is prohibited with litters.

 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Don't see Bell asking the pilot to make a W&B amendment. So where would this requirement for an "addendum" come from? If a pilot were to follow Bell's simple rules what does a weight and balance addendum entered in the logbook serve or accomplish?

[whirlygig]

Now I'm really curious. In my career I have never observed anyone get out the logbook to make an entry before slinging a chainsaw to a faller or a dozen boxes of trees to the planters. I have never seen a chief pilot or ops manager remind a pilot to make his log entry for the door removal while hooking up the bambi bucket. I have never, ever, had someone stress to me the requirement to make a weight and balance amendment for a pilot door removal/re-install in the field. I don't recall ever seeing one of these entries in a log. Not ever. Have I been surrounded by anti-authority types and rule-breakers for the past fifteen years? So to help me to understand this, can one exceed the weight and balance limitations of a Bell 206 or 407 if all they want to do is take the **** door off to go slinging? Of course assuming that the external load is well within limits and there are no passengers or cargo in the cabin and the pilot does not exceed the doors-off Vne. I understand that in a very basic kind of way I would be altering the machine's configuration. Like installing a cargo basket or duals.

 

I found this in the 206 FM:

 

FLIGHT WITH DOOR(S) OFF

All unsecured items must be removed from cabin.

Do not exceed Airspeed and Center of Gravity Limitations.

Protracted rearward and sideward flight prohibited.

External Cargo Loading limited to 3350 pounds (1519.6 kilograms) gross weight

with any combination of door(s) OFF.

Flight with forward door(s) OFF is prohibited with litters.

 

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Don't see Bell asking the pilot to make a W&B amendment. So where would this requirement for an "addendum" come from? If a pilot were to follow Bell's simple rules what does a weight and balance addendum entered in the logbook serve or accomplish?

 

It is just a matter of how picky (or professional) you want to be.

 

If you really want to be picky, unless you have STC'd pip pins and an FMS to go with them on your 206, the door is not designed for rapid removal and replacement (as several tools are required, unlike the Astar). Therefor the removal would require a maintenance release. See below appendix A of elementary maintenance tasks for doors.

 

(22) removal and replacement of cabin doors on unpressurized aircraft, where the door is designed for rapid removal and replacement;

 

There is no end to how far you can take this stuff.

[Jammed left]

Interesting that some guys are looking in the RFM for guidance on this....this is a CARs issue

 

723.37 Weight and Balance System

 

An air operator shall publish in its operations manual a system to ensure that during any phase of flight operations the loading, weight and centre of gravity of the aircraft complies with the limitations specified in the approved flight manual.

 

The weight and balance system shall:

 

(1) establish an operational empty weight and centre of gravity for each aircraft and configuration;

 

Taking a door off is a change in the configuration of aircraft, not a modification, and technically requires a operational weight and C of G calculation. Removing the front seat of an astar is also changing the configuration of the aircraft.

 

The whole idea of a W&B is to have an accurate base to work from in terms of aircraft loading. If you don't have the starting point for the aircraft configuration...it's hard to know where you end up when you load things into your machine.

 

Just cuz it's not convenient, doesn't mean that it technically shouldn't be done...

[mmartin1872]

I thought about that for the 703 ops... but most of the time... when you are flying doors off, you are flying under the 702 aerial work...

702 doesn't have a requirement for w&B ammendments for 'every operational configuration" then you can use 571 appx C for the 'temporary removal/modification'.

 

But then it also depends what your Ops manual says in the W&B control section.

 

Just my take on it.

[whirlygig]

Well I think this will be my last post on this thread.

 

This thread has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this subject is confusing. Therefor I leave you with this simple logic matrix:

 

If you make a configuration for the removal of said items (ie: doors) is it possible you could be found in violation with CARS (therefor taking out of force your C of A, Insurance etc. in the event of an incident/ accident):

 

NO

 

If you DO NOT make a configuration for the removal of said items (ie: doors) is it possible you could be found in violation with CARS (therefor taking out of force your C of A, Insurance etc. in the event of an incident/ accident):

 

YES

 

As always, just my opinion.

[Jammed left]

I thought about that for the 703 ops... but most of the time... when you are flying doors off, you are flying under the 702 aerial work...

702 doesn't have a requirement for w&B ammendments for 'every operational configuration" then you can use 571 appx C for the 'temporary removal/modification'.

 

But then it also depends what your Ops manual says in the W&B control section.

 

Just my take on it.

 

I see your logic on the 703 / 702 thing.....and I agree that the COM is the default of what an organization should do...

 

The requirements of a Journey Log cover it off for all types of flight..

CARs 605.94 schedule 1...particulars to be entered in a journey logbook..

 

Except where an approved fleet empty weight and balance control program is in place, aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity and any change in the aircraft empty weight and empty centre of gravity

 

 

that's all..

[skullcap]

I wonder if this came about because people didn't know the c of g LIMITATIONS change when you remove the door on some types, lets see how many of you pilots who fly one of these affected types get on here and explain them( and why is there a difference between II and III?)

 

Am afraid to open the sliding door now,,,,,land, change the w and b amendment open door, land change the w and b amendment, close door...oh no the w and b changed on the ground and fell off the pad while I was changing the w and b amendment,,,oh my oh my. Anyone want to buy a sliding door?

 

I agree it is good to have a starting point but there are many operators who land remove the door take the sling load, put the door on and return home(lets see about 90% of 206/md500 folks),,,,are they going to be making an entry in the book in middle of nowhere for this, doubt it, after the fact,,,,probably,,,,prime example of head up *** syndrome,,,,you should KNOW the limitations, take into account the weight and balance change and do the job safely.....

 

Perhaps a blurb in the COM which states that doors may be removed for operations necessity(not convenience) and if the particular type has a change in the limitations of c of g these changes will be explained in annual training and if the limitations of c of g are not changed then the weight will be taken into account for load calculations. Just a thought.

[skullcap]

Oh and if is an Astar remember to include the weight of cushions in the amendment and if you have bush seats verses big ol cushions you need another amendment....fml.

[skullcap]

Oh I have an idea. On your original calculations or when weighing the aircraft it is done without cushions and without doors. Thus adding the cushions and doors is like adding baggage,,,the numbers are in the RFM.....because if you have to do an amendment to remove door and cushions but you store them in the helicopter(cushions in Astar fit in baggage compartments, 206 door in back seat) are they not baggage then? Do it vice versa and problem solved eh?

[skullcap]

Or easier yet, on the most aft/fwd calculations of your normal w and b do it without doors and if within limits, the door(s) can be removed safely. Or better yet do some training on what happens to c of g when remove the doors.

 

You have to make it so that the guy in the field at -30 can do his job without prejudice because handing off a CARS requirement to someone in the field and he makes a mistake by not doing umpteen entries in the book and there is an incident without an entry in book and incident has nothing to do with w and b but is in violation,,,the pilot has had prejudice against him and the company is at fault for not ensuring there is a more effiecient method for the pilot to complete his task in a harsh environment. The lack of something as simple as weight and balance training requiring amendments to be made to covers someone's butt is simply not right. When last I worked for a large company with 206's they had questions in the type exam which were designed to train the pilot the extremes of what would happen when removing doors.....