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Weight And Balance Log Entry For Door Removal?

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It would be nice if this forum was used by professionals in the interest of making all of us better at what we do.

 

Instead it is packed with negative sentiment and an overwhelming drive to figure out ways around doing something or to find some reason why something doesn't apply to them.

 

 

 

Where's the unsubscribe button......

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So we have a scenario, the pilot of his bell 206BIII flies the drillers out of Baker Lake, it is sept 30th. Once on the ground with the wind blowing a gentle 10 kts, they tell him he needs to sling back a load of core. He pops his approved set of pip pins and puts the door in back seat unrolls the line and slings the core back. Since he did not shut down at his planned stop and had no idea they wanted to sling anything( but since he was prepared by having the line) but he left the logbook back at airport so the AME could catch up on filling in the tech logs and amendment was not made in the middle of nowhere he is now in violation. Was this an unprofessional setting, it it obviously happens more than you know? Was if fair and professional of his company to put him in this situation,,,,no,so is up to you to get is set up for that guy, he is the one making a living for your company. Your responsibility is to make weight and balance amendments or com changes or training which allow for people to do the job safely and in compliance.

 

 

 

Please help him find the unsuscribe button.

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So we have a scenario, the pilot of his bell 206BIII flies the drillers out of Baker Lake, it is sept 30th. Once on the ground with the wind blowing a gentle 10 kts, they tell him he needs to sling back a load of core. He pops his approved set of pip pins and puts the door in back seat unrolls the line and slings the core back. Since he did not shut down at his planned stop and had no idea they wanted to sling anything( but since he was prepared by having the line) but he left the logbook back at airport so the AME could catch up on filling in the tech logs and amendment was not made in the middle of nowhere he is now in violation. Was this an unprofessional setting, it it obviously happens more than you know? Was if fair and professional of his company to put him in this situation,,,,no,so is up to you to get is set up for that guy, he is the one making a living for your company. Your responsibility is to make weight and balance amendments or com changes or training which allow for people to do the job safely and in compliance.

 

 

 

Please help him find the unsuscribe button.

 

Ok, so you called my bluff,

 

That was not the aspect I was suggesting is unprofessional. We all know how to safely and professionally do our jobs, even in the scenario you described, we know what needs to be done because you are right, this is how we feed our families.

 

It is important however, to realize although it is "normal" and "OK", it is certainly not from a legal perspective and when push comes to shove, it will rest on the persons shoulders who went outside the approved envelope. We all have a license, and it can be viewed as a legal contract, binding us to abide by the laws and regulations that encompass our industry.

 

My point about professionalism is this: Instead of sitting on here trying to come up with every reason in the world not to do a W&B config for things like doors off, just do one, at minimum be in compliance with the regulations or be ahead of the curve, possibly exceed the minimum requirements, be above the regulations, be above the curve, be an industry leader. Then when you get "caught" in the situation you described, but have a proven record of exceeding the minimum requirements in that area, you will likely find yourself judged with a lot more leniency.

 

I am 100% not trying to argue with anyone, it is my opinion and it will vary from others. Just wanted to clear up what I had meant, thats all.

 

And don't worry, I found it ; )

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The issue you describe and am seeing this from a very close perspective is that people believe that when they need to make changes they "raise the bar" to try and remedy the problems within. This has happened for such a long time,,,"the pendelum has to swing and has swung too far, we have to bring it back to where it works" Have heard that quote Years ago there was a bad crash due to bad weather the remedy was to change the legal weather minimums.....the crash happened lower than the existing minimums. If you have issues with not being able to follow the rules then why make more restrictive rules? "we do three minute cool downs on the c20 so the pilots will do two" The pilot will do two because they know that is what is required.

 

Enforce the existing rules. If Transport Canada has an issue with something falling through the cracks, they do not ask that you make more rules, they ask that you impliment ways to ensure the existing issues are dealt with.

 

You want to be professional, take the time to impliment a way to do the same job that has been done without issue in a manner that suits your profile.

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I think Skully has hit the nail on the head once again..

 

The rules are the rules, but there are ways that an operator can help their pilots do their jobs and stay within in regulations that are already in place.

 

That is a much better tactic than trying to figure out the how you can possibly word smith your way around the regulation. Unfortunately most first year law students can shot holes in those attempts....

 

It comes down to professionalism on the part of the operator and the drivers...

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Enforce the existing rules. If Transport Canada has an issue with something falling through the cracks, they do not ask that you make more rules, they ask that you impliment ways to ensure the existing issues are dealt with.

 

You want to be professional, take the time to impliment a way to do the same job that has been done without issue in a manner that suits your profile.

 

I completely agree with the intent of what you are saying.

 

The question here falls under what you are saying as well, not trying to make new rules, but maybe start to comply with existing ones. This entire thread is revolving around the concept (up for debate) that we all should have been doing this before, but no one had been making an issue of it, until now.

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May I ask who is making an issue of it? To have the assumption that if you have the amendent but is not signed out is better than no amendment is false sense of security am afraid and truly no better or as good as the driver knowing the changes which occur with doors off and may even have a sample w and balance in his ibal program.

 

To check what changes there are to the w and b is not hard. On Astar removing standard doors is -30.9 pounds and -2360 moment changes the most fwd and most aft .3 to .5 inch. Not a big deal unless you are running double seat and have aft ballast and decide to remove the doors. Plus where the **** do you stop, cushions, headsets,,,,,?????

 

Has there been an issue with w and balance with doors off,,,,my risk matrix says no, ha ha.

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Maybe a DOM in the know or anyone up on CARS can tell if I am right or wrong here....Please correct me if I am wrong...here goes...

 

If I have this right at some point in the past there was a requirement to do a log book entry if you changed the configuration of the aircraft . For example you take the ski basket off the machine you would write it out in the log book as such ,,ski basket removed blah blah ,,,2 hrs later you put it back on ,,,ski basket installed blah blah,, .

 

Then some one came up with a system that short cut all the writing ,,this was the addendum page we all see attached to our W&B in the Ops man ,flight man and in some comp log books. So now when you remove the ski basket you make a note in the log book in a column near the flight time but before your signature that addendum # 4 is in use and anyone looking to do a C of G calc would refer to the addendum page in the flight man or log book.

 

This works if the pilot is trained in elementary tasks to do any of these TEMPORARY changes that fall within a pilots right to do .IE : someone mentioned removing a 206 door that is equipped with the legal quick pins ,it would not apply if the pilot needed wrenches to remove the door.

 

My recollection is that Transport Ok'd this for operational convenience to get away from having to write it all out every time you did a TEMPORARY change. If you or the next pilot to fly the AC needed to know the W&B that is in effect all you do is reference the number in the WB column in the log book to the WB addendum page in the logbook or flight man....pretty simple.

 

I may not be stating this 100 % but if you read closely you will understand what I mean. Bear in mind just because your company (or a transport inspector) wants it done does not mean it is a CARS requirement. I feel this is an issue that some transport guy figures he wants to see , not what is a legal requirement. If anyone has past historical knowledge of the whole Amendment /addendum thing please update all of us one way or the other. And as I said in the beginning I stand corrected if my idea here is not right.

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Maybe a DOM in the know or anyone up on CARS can tell if I am right or wrong here....Please correct me if I am wrong...here goes...

 

If I have this right at some point in the past there was a requirement to do a log book entry if you changed the configuration of the aircraft . For example you take the ski basket off the machine you would write it out in the log book as such ,,ski basket removed blah blah ,,,2 hrs later you put it back on ,,,ski basket installed blah blah,, .

 

Then some one came up with a system that short cut all the writing ,,this was the addendum page we all see attached to our W&B in the Ops man ,flight man and in some comp log books. So now when you remove the ski basket you make a note in the log book in a column near the flight time but before your signature that addendum # 4 is in use and anyone looking to do a C of G calc would refer to the addendum page in the flight man or log book.

 

This works if the pilot is trained in elementary tasks to do any of these TEMPORARY changes that fall within a pilots right to do .IE : someone mentioned removing a 206 door that is equipped with the legal quick pins ,it would not apply if the pilot needed wrenches to remove the door.

 

My recollection is that Transport Ok'd this for operational convenience to get away from having to write it all out every time you did a TEMPORARY change. If you or the next pilot to fly the AC needed to know the W&B that is in effect all you do is reference the number in the WB column in the log book to the WB addendum page in the logbook or flight man....pretty simple.

 

I may not be stating this 100 % but if you read closely you will understand what I mean. Bear in mind just because your company (or a transport inspector) wants it done does not mean it is a CARS requirement. I feel this is an issue that some transport guy figures he wants to see , not what is a legal requirement. If anyone has past historical knowledge of the whole Amendment /addendum thing please update all of us one way or the other. And as I said in the beginning I stand corrected if my idea here is not right.

 

Hello,

 

I am one of the above. There are a few things wrong with this statement.

 

All maintenance including elementary maintenance requires a log book entry.

 

 

(1) A person who performs maintenance or elementary work on an aeronautical product shall ensure that the following information is recorded in the technical records, established in accordance with Subpart 605 of the CARs, for the aeronautical product:

 

Information Note:

 

Appendix A of Standard 625 - Aircraft Equipment and Maintenance lists the tasks and conditions associated to elementary work and section 605.94 of the CARs requires that all tasks designated as elementary work be recorded in the journey log.

 

(a) product identification (aircraft registration marking, nomenclature, type/model number, name of manufacturer, part number, and serial number), unless the entry is being made in technical record that contains this information;

 

(B ) a brief description of the work performed;

 

(c ) where a standard other than the manufacturer’s recommended practice is being used, reference to the standard used in the performance of the work;

 

Only the specific items listed in the actual list of Elementary tasks (Appendix A of CAR 625) can qualify under Elementary Maintenance. So your ski basket example would not be valid. A maintenance release would be required and a weight and balance amendment or addendum would be required as well.

 

The "short cut" of the addendum is just so you don't have to do an amendment to the actual weight and balance report every time you make a "temporary" change.

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